Is a ban the solution to water birds and lead?

[spanj]

As an avid game shooter I'm all for this, surprising as it may seem. It is the best suggestion I've heard yet. I have lost count of the number of times I have been on a game shoot only to be presented with the 'flight pond' drive! The ducks are almost tame and come waddling out of the margins as soon as they spot the guns in the belief they're going to be fed. After the beaters have flapped their arms, whooped and hollered themselves into a sweaty heap with little or no result with the exception of one or two waist high ducks causing one or two guns to twitch with anticipation, and the beaters to twitch in fear, the dogs are 'sent in'. One or two dogs actually get close but the duck simply dives, leaving the keen but knackered dog to switch directions in search of another, which waits 'til the dog is temptingly close then does the same. Eventually most of the ducks are driven out of the pond onto the field where the fitter dogs and younger beaters chase them around until the keeper blows his whistle.He's now in a bad mood.

On the rare occassion they do 'get up' they either fly round in circles just above head height where any shot duck has to have the wad extracted before presenting the carcass to the game cart, or they 'get up' and ****** off into the next county, or over a neighboring shoot who take great delight in the pub later, in telling the 'keeper how many ducks they shot on their shoot that afternoon.The 'keeper at this point is making a mental note to round them up into the rear of the horsebox and shoot them in the head with his air rifle.(The ducks, not the neighboring syndicate)

Or is that just my experience?

I was berated by a keeper for refusing to shoot on a duck drive. If I'd known there was one I wouldnt have gone. IMO duck drives tend to be used to make up for a poor days shooting and nothing else. It certainly isnt sport.

[Scully]

Can you point me to these documents as, from my limited reading, the samples were not obtained directly from UK game shoots and nothing I have read puts the blame squarely at the door of game shoots.

I too would like to see these 'well documented' documents.

[spanj]

Its really disappointing to hear the "its the game shooters fault" type responses on here (for the record I am both a fowler and rough shooter). A bird is as dead with lead as it is steel ( or other load type), just remember the issue is about getting shooting banned, the lead debate is just the toe in the door (again, just my opinion). We'd all do better without pointing fingers but by dealing with the offending individuals robustly

Edited March 2, 2014 by spanj

[jayDT10]

Well,

 

I am back in Kazakhstan for the next 30 days, so thought I would start a bit of a debate.

 

The bottom line is this. Currently, it is illegal to shoot water fowl with lead, as we all know. There also appears a rumbling to push all shooters in the direction of non-toxic shot as people are regularly flouting the lead ban. I have personally never been on a driven duck shoot where everyone used the correct shot type. I only know 3 wildfowlers and all three tell me they use lead, but keep a couple of non-toxics in their pockets in case they get asked questions. I cannot speak for all the fowlers, as I say, I only know 3. However, the fact is such things do happen.

 

The number of people who shoot wildfowl is only a small percentage of shooters in the UK. So, my question is this - if those shooting wildfowl/ducks etc (whatever generic term you wish to use) do not all follow the rules, rather than ban lead, why not ban shooting such quarry?? Fewer of us will be 'punished' AND the 'problem' is instantly resolved. Thoughts?

 

B06

you must be on a wind up.

[kent]

Can you point me to these documents as, from my limited reading, the samples were not obtained directly from UK game shoots and nothing I have read puts the blame squarely at the door of game shoots.

I agree there can be only here say, though I know not a single fowler who will sell his birds to a game dealer, there are not many larger game shoots that can do anything but. If I was to shoot a duck inland I should always eat it myself after breaking bits off teeth with non toxic steel.

[kent]

Its really disappointing to hear the "its the game shooters fault" type responses on here (for the record I am both a fowler and rough shooter). A bird is as dead with lead as it is steel ( or other load type), just remember the issue is about getting shooting banned, the lead debate is just the toe in the door (again, just my opinion). We'd all do better without pointing fingers but by dealing with the offending individuals robustly

Unfortunately you will find many wildfowlers resent the fact that birds were found with lead in them off the supermarket shelves . The reason is they have a long history of compliance and see it as someone else giving the anti ammunition to be fired at shooting and shooters at their expense. I cannot comment on North of the border but non toxic is taken very seriously by the wildfowling clubs(some even check your ammo with metal detectors and check you are not carrying any lead shells, so there is no switching) One I am in has even told members not to re-load with shells that once contained lead and assumption might be drawn.

There is no proof though only accusation and in that fact I say fair point

[kent]

I was berated by a keeper for refusing to shoot on a duck drive. If I'd known there was one I wouldnt have gone. IMO duck drives tend to be used to make up for a poor days shooting and nothing else. It certainly isnt sport.

Its about time some guns berated the poor keeper who shows rubbish to be murdered! My mate (an ex-fowler and ex-game shot) was acting as a press photographer at a big shoot, when he saw the ducks reluctant to take off and then circling to re-land he said a naughty word to the organisers and packed his stuff, deleted the pictures and left.

It only takes a few good men to stand up and actually do something

[Grandalf]

Being a wildfowler and a game shooter I can say that I have never come across a fowler illegally using lead but have lost count of how many ducks have been downed on game shoots I have attended. Hopefully the shooter involved used the right cartridge but I tend to doubt it from the statistics.

I always carry half a dozen bismuth in my top pocket and it takes only a second or two to change loads.

The law, as it stands, is ridiculous but we are saddled with it in England. Something else to thank Natural England for.

Any fowling club would instantly expel any member caught using lead.

Ban driven ducks if you like - But don't blame the innocent.

[fenboy]

 

How about we don't ban anything?

 

Simply because the survey done found lead in duck at game dealers, duck that was quite clearly got from game shoots.

 

 

Has anyone seen any evidence to substantiate this 'report' ?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fenvironment%2F2010%2Fnov%2F10%2Fducks-lead-shot&ei=e1kUU_PiMsOShQf65ICwCA&usg=AFQjCNF8CczHobXWSRmZDQ_bgzyuX2HN1A&bvm=bv.61965928,d.ZG4

[Fal]

I do not know a single person in the wildfowling club I am a member of that uses lead. Real wildfowlers value their sport way too much to risk it.

 

From what I have seen the majority of clubs do not allow shooters to sell on their ducks. I would put my house on the duck at the game dealers being from a duck shoot.

 

I have had the misfortune of beating on a shoot that had a duck pond, it was a massacre. I actually felt uncomfotable and didn't go back. Ducks that could hardly fly, circling the guns becuase they know no different to the life on that pond, I didn't see a single person swap cartridges to shoot the ducks.

 

I do agree with the point that I think the ban should be area related rather that quarry, but it's too late for that now. I also don't think bringing up such a subject such as banning any type of shooitng is very helpful on a public forum. Shooting is having a hard enough time as it is.

[Beretta06]

you must be on a wind up.

 

I am emotive yes - trying to promote debate amongst my peers - but not trying to rag people. Iy tires me that the problem is there and we don't resolve it. I don't want to see any shooting banned, I just want compliance with the laws - even if the law is an *** on this occasion.

 

 

I think your comments on an open forum are , at best, unhelpful. I also think you should report the three wildfowlers you know to both basc and the police and see what gets done about it. If you're not prepared to do this I dont see the point of the post. Just my opinion and no offence intended.

 

Why are the comments unhelpful?? Or are we supposed to project an image to the world that we think compliance is complete? I think the fact we discuss things openly actually shows the outside world that we are upset by those flouting the laws.

 

Spanj, you need to read all the posts before 'suggesting' I do something. If you had, you'd see I asked for a club's details so I could take action. As for the Police, that's a non-starter. What would they be charged with - making a disparaging statement about something illegal?? That's my problem with the whole caper to be honest, the only way action seems to be taken is if people are caught red handed. I have no doubt that the people in question will only deny it when asked by club secretaries etc. The one thing that may happen is the individuals will be closely monitored, which can only be a good thing.

[andrewluke]

 

I am emotive yes - trying to promote debate amongst my peers - but not trying to rag people. Iy tires me that the problem is there and we don't resolve it. I don't want to see any shooting banned, I just want compliance with the laws - even if the law is an *** on this occasion.

 

 

 

 

 

why dont you report the culprits then!

[jayDT10]

Personally I hope they ban lead before wildfowling . Though they wouldn't have to ban anything if people abide by laws that are there for the safe keeping of their sport, as for the op , I'd of much rather read your topic title as (informed Kent wildfowlers of three idiots claiming to use toxic shot on wildfowl. To even think about a ban of wildfowling is ridiculous as it will only start the ball rolling.

[mudpatten]

This time round, as I understand it,the same research on the metal content of dead ducks bought from game dealers is being done by the same people.

 

The results of this past seasons survey are,I believe, due to be published soon. Surely you did`nt think that the last survey was a one off?

 

As I understand it, much of the wiggle room in the last survey, such as the ducks came from Latvia, the dark side of the moon or wherever, have been plugged.

 

I think that the game shooting community will have learned from the last debacle and compliance with the non tox legislation will be almost universal.

 

Those who defend us in the corridors of power need to be able to convince the Government that the existing legislation is being completely complied with. They need to be able to prove to government that we are trustworthy and able to regulate ourselves.

 

The survey results will prove that we can be trusted.

 

Won`t they?

[fenboy]

This time round, as I understand it,the same research on the metal content of dead ducks bought from game dealers is being done by the same people.

 

The results of this past seasons survey are,I believe, due to be published soon. Surely you did`nt think that the last survey was a one off?

 

As I understand it, much of the wiggle room in the last survey, such as the ducks came from Latvia, the dark side of the moon or wherever, have been plugged.

 

I think that the game shooting community will have learned from the last debacle and compliance with the non tox legislation will be almost universal.

 

Those who defend us in the corridors of power need to be able to convince the Government that the existing legislation is being completely complied with. They need to be able to prove to government that we are trustworthy and able to regulate ourselves.

 

The survey results will prove that we can be trusted.

 

Won`t they?

 

They should also be convincing them that the legislation as it is now is ridiculous , we need to be in line with scotland

[Penelope]

Trouble is, with the Scottish system, you would not be able to shoot that pheasant that flushes from the other side of the drain with lead, you'd have to use non toxic.

 

 

They should also be convincing them that the legislation as it is now is ridiculous , we need to be in line with scotland

[Dekers]

Is a ban the solution to water birds and lead?

 

Is a ban on cars the solution to speeding offences?

[kent]

Is a ban the solution to water birds and lead?

 

Is a ban on cars the solution to speeding offences?

 

In theory it is no lead on sale means its very hard to use it without setting up your own plant like the moonshine guys did during prohibition in the USA. No cars on the road certainly means only a fast cyclist could speed (or a motorbike, van etc) lesson in law writing there? (perhaps that the issue with todays system?)It needed a better draft, though to be fair the answer is well known from the hunting act and some other mad laws- ITS NOT THE LAW ITS THE ENFORCEMENT AND ENFORCEABILITY OF THE LAW THAT COUNTS

[andrewluke]

OK, I will offer an alternative - ban driven shooting of ducks etc. Clearly some 'fowlers are not towing the line - I know three!! - but what makes you say it is a bigger problem amongst the game shooters??

 

have you reported the 3 culprits yet?

 

andrew

[Big Mat]

 

have you reported the 3 culprits yet?

 

andrew

 

He better do, kent club is aware of this thread!

[muncher]

What ever way you think on lead one thing is certain ,lead will be banned we can shout all we like but you can't defend lead as its toxic , the Eu will ban it and we will have to follow suit .

 

He better do, kent club is aware of this thread!

With no evidence it's just Chinese whispers!!!

[poontang]

This time round, as I understand it,the same research on the metal content of dead ducks bought from game dealers is being done by the same people.

 

The results of this past seasons survey are,I believe, due to be published soon. Surely you did`nt think that the last survey was a one off?

 

As I understand it, much of the wiggle room in the last survey, such as the ducks came from Latvia, the dark side of the moon or wherever, have been plugged.

 

 

 

I can't wait to see that.

 

I'd be particularly interested to see who's funded it.

[Beretta06]

 

have you reported the 3 culprits yet?

 

andrew

 

Letters have been sent to the appropriate places.

 

 

He better do, kent club is aware of this thread!

 

I'm not sure how I have become the wrongdoer in this thread. As for 'he better do', is that a veiled threat?? I have done what I think is correct, I don't need pushing or intimidating into doing anything thanks. The only way this will stop with game/wildfowl or any other form is if it is self-policed. Only shooters can stop shooters doing this. I have no tangible evidence, no sensible person will do anything other than deny it, or say it was anything more than a joke comment. It will make me unpopular (I doubt it will be hard for the people to work out who said what) but we will see. Policing needs to come from within.

 

So, rather than harass me, check your own pockets and that of all your shooting mates, every time you go out. Then, do something about it if you find a problem.

[kent]

Letters have been sent to the appropriate places.

 

 

I'm not sure how I have become the wrongdoer in this thread. As for 'he better do', is that a veiled threat? ? I have done what I think is correct, I don't need pushing or intimidating into doing anything thanks. The only way this will stop with game/wildfowl or any other form is if it is self-policed. Only shooters can stop shooters doing this. I have no tangible evidence, no sensible person will do anything other than deny it, or say it was anything more than a joke comment. It will make me unpopular (I doubt it will be hard for the people to work out who said what) but we will see. Policing needs to come from within.

 

So, rather than harass me, check your own pockets and that of all your shooting mates, every time you go out. Then, do something about it if you find a problem.

Well you have now reported it. One issue is the right to stop and search does not exist for the individual. Even the Police now have to fill in forms etc. At the end of the day most fowlers will agree that only an odd fool might try it as to be found out it will likely end their fowling days for life