Airgun charging Cylinder in car?

[NickP]

Totally new to PCP and a search didn't bring up any results.

 

I have bought a 7l 300bar cylinder to charge my PCP

 

A man shouting at his son for leaving chocolate on his car seat just got me thinking

 

Can i leave a charge cylinder in my car? not all the time, but whilst shooting, to save me carrying it to the range, just in case I need to charge up?

 

just thinking inside a car can get pretty hot and after seeing mythbusters and power of cylinders its got me to ask the question?

[peek-at]

Air cylinders are rated to very high pressure and raising the temperature to that of a hot car will make no difference at all.

If you are that worried, keep it in the boot............

[LeadWasp]

Hi NickP

 

It pays to treat cylinders carefully due to the energy stored within them. Having said that there is a considerable safety factor involved in the relationship between the working and test pressures. In addition there is usually a safety burst disc in the valve neck. A good condition cylinder with the correct valve, in test, will be fine. To start with the cylinder will probably be below full working pressure on a normal day/temperature. If you can actually get a full 300 bar fill then you're lucky...one of the reasons I went back to 232 bar diving gear was the hassle of trying to get a 'full' fill out of someone's compressor!

 

I would be more concerned over how it is secured in a vehicle in case of collision, whether you wish to carry a safety sign on the vehicle (not mandatory) and the actual safe operation of the charging whip. Love the cylinder valve/necks like your firstborn!

 

I've transported diving cylinders of up to 400bar for over 20 years without incident, but I do tend to treat them with respect. For me they are life support equipment (and some are shooting equipment too!) and full of energy so I don't let them lead a provocative life. However, don't forget that they are used out in the middle east with daytime temperatures on the coast of around 38C.

 

I'm **** at maths but a quick combined gas law scribble for 25C, 7L, 300 bar done in SI units gave me 376 bar at 100C. No worries.

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/diveindx.htm#diving-info-sheets

 

Heavy aren't they!!

[evo]

keep it in the boot of the car bud, you will have no problems at all unless someone torches your car lol

 

atb Evo

[NickP]

Thank you all for the replies and reassurances on my new past time, I'll only be carrying in when shooting, but I've already got straps to secure it to the freelanders tie down points

[B725]

I always leave my 300 bottle in the car when shooting, left out of site and never had any problems at all.

[Clubshot]

Thought - always have bottle - laying with Gauge across the back -

 

So if you was hit from the Rear it will not come through and get passengers & Driver

 

Many make up a wooden frame to stop possible movement in vehicle and protect gauge and pipe -

 

Have a couple in my Van - via Side door - As carry a Club Bottle as well -

 

I have seen a 12 Litre 300 Bar bottle go down the range - when knocked over - knocking off gauge -

Scrared many of Range and got Shooters to secure them - against falling over -

 

BOB/R

[silver pigeon69]

do not worry about the heat at all!

 

we used to have 200bar cylinders filled to 220bar cold and left in the back of cars and left outside all day long in Sharm, Egypt, where the outside temperatures reached almost 50 degrees and they were fine.

 

If the cylinders do get too hot they will not explode! they have a "burst disc" in the neck that will fail first and dump all the air! It is very noisey and scares the **** out of you, but will cause no damage to the surroundings! (burst disc will need to be replaced though) We used to fill them to 250bar when hot and they would cool to 210-220bar, never had a problem.

 

However, knocking them over can cause the valve to break off, which is bad!

 

 

edit: Dont forget to put a Compressed air sticker on the back of your vehicle, when carrying it, to stay within the law!

Edited July 2, 2014 by silver pigeon69

[la bala]

Has anyone ever approached their car insurance company on carrying air cylinders in their vehicles.

[NickP]

i thought the compressed air sticker was not mandatory?

 

I found this, but might be out of date, but if i was working and using air (pest control) but heading off to the range should be ok

 

 

 

BSAC TECHNICAL PUBLICATIONS
Information Sheet T.10

COMPRESSED AIR WARNING SIGNS ON MOTOR VEHICLES

EC legislation now coming into force in UK requires commercial vehicles carrying compressed gases and other hazardous substances, to carry a Hazard Warning sign which emergency services will recognise and make allowances for when dealing with road traffic accidents. For compressed air cylinders, the sign is a green diamond (minimum size 100mm square) with a cylinder symbol and the words Compressed Air.

Amateur divers have asked if there is any legal requirement for them to display such a sign when transporting aqualung cylinders in private cars. BSAC has sought advice from the Health and Safety Executive, and we are assured by an Inspector from the HSE Diving National Interest Group that this legislation applies only to those who are at work, not to those carrying gas cylinders in private cars for recreational purposes.

The legislation is likely to apply to diving school staff / professional recreational diving instructors carrying cylinders in a private car when used for business, but it does not apply to the average diving club member going about their recreational pursuit; nor does anything in the legislation suggest that it might be expanded to include recreational users in future.

Divers might think it socially responsible to display such a sign on their cars when carrying cylinders on the highway - and it would not be illegal to do so - but the legislation states that the sign should be displayed only while cylinders are actually in transit. If there are no cylinders in the car, there should be no sign suggesting that there are. Bearing in mind that the signs are usually in the form of a window sticker, this could be a problem! Furthermore, permanent display of such a sign might invite criminals to break into the car, hoping to find something valuable to steal.

To summarise, HSE have made it clear to BSAC that the legislation does not apply to persons who are not at work, so is not applicable to recreational divers going about their chosen sport.

(The HSE are likely to introduce their own explanatory brochure on this subject in spring 1997, at which time this Information Sheet will be reviewed and modified if necessary).

 

 

seeing if i can find something more upto date

[Herr Plinker]

Thank you all for the replies and reassurances on my new past time, I'll only be carrying in when shooting, but I've already got straps to secure it to the freelanders tie down points

 

I use one of these to stop it moving around in the boot - very secure on a rubble boot mat - http://www.bestfittings.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=565

[Longbower]

2 simple "thick" cardboard triangles/ squares (from a shops waste bin), are enough to stop a smallish cylinder rolling around in the car.

[silver pigeon69]

i thought the compressed air sticker was not mandatory?

 

I found this, but might be out of date, but if i was working and using air (pest control) but heading off to the range should be ok

 

 

Not sure, but if you were heading off to the range, could this be seen as training or zero'ing sites for work? i thought the sticker was something to do will road traffc/safety acts? to help police/fire crews in an accident, not just HSE?

 

Edit: i use a magnetic sticker- easy to place and remove!

Edited July 2, 2014 by silver pigeon69

[webber]

To echo what has previously been advised.

 

The cylinders that you refer to are designed to withstand the pressure rise caused by extremes in temperature.

The cylinder would be unlikely to rupture even if your car was on fire.

 

Don't confuse these cylinders with say LPG and Carbon Di Oxide cylinders which have devises fitted to the valves to relive pressure from the cylinder when internal pressure reaches an unacceptable level. You wouldn't want to be sat in the vehicle should that event ever occur.

 

Cylinder should ideally be secured during transit, it's a good idea to display the green triangle compressed air sign, I have a few different options in stock, ranging from a magnetic sign, a sticker and a sign secured with a sucker.

[Junkyard Dog]

Diving/shooting Cylinders in UK dont have burst disc valves, they are not compliant with CE,

 

I have worked in the diving industry for over 20 years and have never had a problem, the heat will increase the pressure slightly, the cylinder is tested to approx a 1/3 above its working pressure, so dont worry.

 

Have seen cylinders fail when overpumped, not a pretty sight and if its been in a shop it usually ends in massive injury unless a proper blast wall was in use for filling cylinders behind.

 

The compressed gas sticker is mandatory, and it is best used, it does have advantages, a car/van etc with a compressed gas sticker on cannot be wheel clamped in case of fire, if we were working in anywhere we may get clamped, we used to leave a 3l cyl in the motor and make sure a sticker is on it, then no clamping....

[birdsallpl]

I don't believe hazard diamonds are mandatory for domestic use and with such small volumes. However it can't do any harm to fit them. However it is an offence to actually display them on commercial vehicles if that type of gas is not being carried. So it would also be appropriate to remove the hazard diamond when not carrying gas in domestic vehicles.

[Junkyard Dog]

In the eyes of the fire service the stickers are mandatory/essential as a car on fire with no sign and a cylinder in the boot can result in the death of a firefighter if it goes up whilst they are trying to save your car etc...

 

It's also worth checking your home insurance if you keep the cylinder in the house, some are not happy about it and insist on it being in an unattached garage or shed.

[birdsallpl]

I think it is worth remembering we are talking about compressed air. It has absolutely no potential for harm other than a stored energy source ( that shouldn't be under estimated) These cylinders are designed to withstand extremes of pressure. Most cylinder incidents are usually created by the misuse of Acetylene or LPG cylinders. High pressure cylinders involved in fires usually have the bronze valve melt releasing the stored gas ( which can be very dangerous) but very few high pressure cylinders actually explode. When explosions occur it is usually Acetylene or LPG cylinders. Although it is of course possible that high pressure cylinders could and the potential for injury severe, the percentage is very low. But if your a fire fighter one in a million is one too many

[robbiep]

There is no requirement in UK law to display a sign if you are a recreational shooter/diver. If you operate a diving school, on the other hand, or if you are an instructor who as part of your work does diver training, then yes, you do need to display a sign.

 

Out of interest. Imagine a hot day. 300 bar cylinder, filled to 300 bar. When you lock the car, it's 20 C inside the car. Car internal temperature goes up to 50 C.

 

Pressure rises to 330 bar.

But this assumes it sits there all day, and the contents have the time to fully heat up to temperature too. It also assumes that when you had your cylinder filled to 300 bar, you then had it cooled for a few hours, or water bathed, so that you could squeeze in every little bit of air possible. If you started at 290 bar, then it'd only get up to 320 bar.

 

When you consider that the hydrostatic (5 year) test overpressures the cylinder to 450 to 500 bar, the risk is minimal.

[NickB65]

^{Air cylinders are tested to very high standards and as long as your cylinder is within test then you should be fine. Think about it, when you pick-up gas cylinders for the BBQ or gas guns they are stored outside. The gas gun in the field is tested to the same standard as these are in the field all day long. Saying that I always keep mine in the boot of the car more to keep it away from prying eyes than anything else.}

[Therealchucknorris]

In the eyes of the fire service the stickers are mandatory/essential as a car on fire with no sign and a cylinder in the boot can result in the death of a firefighter if it goes up whilst they are trying to save your car etc...

 

This is the statement that made me purchase a magnetic one this morning for those odd occasions when I do take the tank on a scenic trip.

 

Nice one

[30-6]

Is there any specific place on the vehicle the green triangle needs to be displayed.

 

If someone was clamping, would they be expected to literally walk around the vehicle checking for such a sign ?

[birdsallpl]

Is there any specific place on the vehicle the green triangle needs to be displayed.

 

If someone was clamping, would they be expected to literally walk around the vehicle checking for such a sign ?

On domestic vehicles I believe it is only voluntary so probably rear would suffice.

 

Not sure the clamping restriction is even correct. Does anyone know of any formal document that explains this?

[Therealchucknorris]

If it's a magnetic one like my new sign then I'd fully expect it to be removed and dropped down a local drain before the clampers took hold.