Auction buyer premiums rip off

[scotslad]

Never realised the% are so steep. Does put a lot on a gun. Been a while sinc i bought a motor at a mart but sure only paying a couple of % there.

 

VAT will depend on if the VAT was paid initailly. ie When gun was bought brand new first owner pays the vat and so no vat on that gun (van, quad, tool etc) but if the first buyer was a business and claimed the vat on the gun, vat will not have been paid so vat willl need to be charged but only once

[JABB]

RossEM.

 

Question for you, if I may.

When you sell a gun for Mr A and charge him, say 15%. Mr B buys the gun and you charge him 25%. Who are you actually working for? Are you not conflicting interests?

 

I think the problem is perceived value for money. These days we all know there will be fees, as you know they are there when bidding and should take them into consideration. What I have a problem with is houses which don't put the effort in and can't be bothered or do and get it wrong.

 

It does however bug me slightly when people moan about the ebay fees. 10% to sell something, my God, Ebay are evil! The reality is, if you list on ebay, your item gets a world wide audience and the best possible exposure, generally getting a good price, far above 10% more than you may get with traditional newsagents window advertising etc.

 

It is a matter of balance. 10% is IMHO fair, with no buyers premium. Larger houses and their premiums are getting out of hand.

[RossEM]

We're acting for both parties, yes, but I don't believe that constitutes a conflict. We want to get the best possible price for the vendor - the buyer should be prepared to pay!

[birdsallpl]

At the end of the day, you don't have to buy at auction and if you get stung by not taking commission into consideration, tough luck. But it's entirely possible to get huge bargains by buying at auction - you just have to make yourself aware of the process!

 

Hi RossEM

 

I agree you can get some real bargains at auction including commission, that is the name of the game and I will keep using other houses if I need another gun. But it's the 25% plus VAT which I find outrages.

Out of interest do you know why sellers of guns use auction houses because they can't get much from most guns sold. I can understand the person who is selling Grandad's pair of H&H etc and old stock clearance for RFD's, but do general joe public bother. It's the last place I'd sell a gun but the first place I look to buy.

[Scully]

While not attempting to derail the thread ( I'm possibly the only one on this forum affected by this anyhow ) I'm in a similar position as I sell original artwork to galleries. Some of the 'giftshop' galleries aren't too bad as they will only charge the artist 25 -30% commission, but the commercial galleries can charge as much as 35-38% commission plus vat, with some of the London galleries charging 50% plus vat. This means that it can be very easy to price yourself out of a sale when you take into account the galleries commission, plus vat, plus the frame and materials (though tax deductible) and then pay your own income tax, this is before you price the actual work itself. Most artists, even the well known established ones, can often only receive a third of the actual sale price.

But if we want to make a sale we have no choice.

A company in Chelsea wants me to get involved in their annual Art Fair and sends me all the relevant literature on a regular basis. It is 'commission free' but the cost of a 4 sq metre stand starts at £2,500 for the weekend. There is then the logistics involved of transporting all my paintings to London, plus the cost of that return transport, plus digs,plus food. And that's without making a sale.

Everyone wants their cut; (often at the expense of the manufacturer) it's the way of the world. The auction houses need the buyers and sellers as the galleries need the artists, but it works both ways; it's perhaps the balance that needs addressing.

[aris]

If auctioneering is such easy money - why isn't everyone doing it?

 

You always have the option to advertise yourself and sell direct.

 

For guns - there are places like Guntrader/Gunstar/Gunwatch. For Art, there are countless online galleries. For everything else, there are places like eBay.

 

At the end of the day, these places offer a service, and charge accordingly. It is a free market - nobody has a monopoly on selling.

[wabbitbosher]

If auctioneering is such easy money - why isn't everyone doing it?

 

You always have the option to advertise yourself and sell direct.

 

For guns - there are places like Guntrader/Gunstar/Gunwatch. For Art, there are countless online galleries. For everything else, there are places like eBay.

 

At the end of the day, these places offer a service, and charge accordingly. It is a free market - nobody has a monopoly on selling.

Well said that man !

All Auctions show the costs in black and white

If you dont like the costs Dont bid !

[Scully]

 

 

You always have the option to advertise yourself and sell direct.

 

For guns - there are places like Guntrader/Gunstar/Gunwatch. For Art, there are countless online galleries. For everything else, there are places like eBay.

 

At the end of the day, these places offer a service, and charge accordingly. It is a free market - nobody has a monopoly on selling.

I was merely offering an observation really, rather than a complaint. After all,there's nothing any of us can do regarding the 'balance'. I agree with most of the above and as I said, everyone wants their cut, which for a commercial outlet is nothing more than business. We can choose to sell and buy via various ways, but no one buys investment art from on-line galleries as the prestige and collector 'value' that peer acknowledgement gained from established galleries doesn't exist. The same applies, as far as I know, with firearms; you wont find that 'collector' piece on-line unless it is being sold via a collectors site or RFD on which the seller/buyer premium has already been paid at auction and is included in the price it is being offered for. No one sells at a loss. It's just business.

[RED BEARD]

I think the buyers premium is coming to all auctions steadily. But if there's two dispersal sales on the same day and one of the auctioneers doesnt charge buyers premium, thats the one I go to.

[rimfire4969]

Well said that man !

All Auctions show the costs in black and white

If you dont like the costs Dont bid !

Exactly what I did. I no longer buy from auction houses that charge so much to the buyer. I understand that they must make a profit but some of the costs involved just seem very high.

[JABB]

While not attempting to derail the thread ( I'm possibly the only one on this forum affected by this anyhow ) I'm in a similar position as I sell original artwork to galleries. Some of the 'giftshop' galleries aren't too bad as they will only charge the artist 25 -30% commission, but the commercial galleries can charge as much as 35-38% commission plus vat, with some of the London galleries charging 50% plus vat. This means that it can be very easy to price yourself out of a sale when you take into account the galleries commission, plus vat, plus the frame and materials (though tax deductible) and then pay your own income tax, this is before you price the actual work itself. Most artists, even the well known established ones, can often only receive a third of the actual sale price.

But if we want to make a sale we have no choice.

A company in Chelsea wants me to get involved in their annual Art Fair and sends me all the relevant literature on a regular basis. It is 'commission free' but the cost of a 4 sq metre stand starts at £2,500 for the weekend. There is then the logistics involved of transporting all my paintings to London, plus the cost of that return transport, plus digs,plus food. And that's without making a sale.

Everyone wants their cut; (often at the expense of the manufacturer) it's the way of the world. The auction houses need the buyers and sellers as the galleries need the artists, but it works both ways; it's perhaps the balance that needs addressing.

The big problem is money. As an atrist ( let me genralise here ) you sit at home and paint in your kitchen, study or shed, with no on cost. When you go to sell it, you think of a figure. Do you base it on 5 hours at 25 pounds an hour? Do you just say I feel that is worth 100 pounds? Right, you have a price at your door.

Now, where do you sell? The only free places are gumtree etc. Not great. Ebay, ok that will be 10%. Not good, as 1000s of other work on there and you can't understand the art on line that well. Small galleries often run by artists making little to no money, many not surviving, but it is for the art, correct, not business? Say 25%. Now, we move on to galleries who have proper expensive retail space, a number of paid staff there to talk to the customers and sell. You have insurance, rent, rates, storage space etc. If, as an artist you take over 30% of the floor / wall space, within the commision, that has to clear 30% of the shops "cost". However, the shop takes a punt they will sell. If they do, quids in for the shop, if not, the shop has taken no money. So, these galleries want 30 - 40%. London space is astranomical, so 50 - 60% on is very fair.

The alternative is to buy or rent a shop, staff it, insure it, light and heat it, promote it, pay PDQ charges etc etc and hope you sell enough to cover the overheads, but you will probably need to put 50% on top of you first thought figure to cover the outgoings. One good thing for galleries / shops who are VAT registered is with unique art, you can do VAT on special scheme whereby you only pay the 20% VAT on a profit. General retail markup is 2.4. This is how shops exist. If you want me, as a gallery to sell your print and make 5pounds profit, I will need to sell 1000s a week to make it pay.

[loriusgarrulus]

When I sell anything. I apply criteria. If I just want to get rid, I put it in the local auction and anything I make is a bonus. If I want to get most of the money for it I put it on Preloved.

[Scully]

The big problem is money. As an atrist ( let me genralise here ) you sit at home and paint in your kitchen, study or shed, with no on cost. When you go to sell it, you think of a figure. Do you base it on 5 hours at 25 pounds an hour? Do you just say I feel that is worth 100 pounds? Right, you have a price at your door.

Now, where do you sell? The only free places are gumtree etc. Not great. Ebay, ok that will be 10%. Not good, as 1000s of other work on there and you can't understand the art on line that well. Small galleries often run by artists making little to no money, many not surviving, but it is for the art, correct, not business? Say 25%. Now, we move on to galleries who have proper expensive retail space, a number of paid staff there to talk to the customers and sell. You have insurance, rent, rates, storage space etc. If, as an artist you take over 30% of the floor / wall space, within the commision, that has to clear 30% of the shops "cost". However, the shop takes a punt they will sell. If they do, quids in for the shop, if not, the shop has taken no money. So, these galleries want 30 - 40%. London space is astranomical, so 50 - 60% on is very fair.

The alternative is to buy or rent a shop, staff it, insure it, light and heat it, promote it, pay PDQ charges etc etc and hope you sell enough to cover the overheads, but you will probably need to put 50% on top of you first thought figure to cover the outgoings. One good thing for galleries / shops who are VAT registered is with unique art, you can do VAT on special scheme whereby you only pay the 20% VAT on a profit. General retail markup is 2.4. This is how shops exist. If you want me, as a gallery to sell your print and make 5pounds profit, I will need to sell 1000s a week to make it pay.

Can't really argue with any of that. As I said, it wasn't really a complaint as such. It is all about money, and it's all relative; higher the overheads then higher the commission, and the higher I price my work. I realise you are generalising, but would just add that unless it is an exclusive one man show, no artist takes up 30% of a galleries wall space, and no gallery would settle for 5 pounds on a print.

As for 'it is for the art, not the money?' then yes and no. I could make a very good living sitting at home churning out paintings\drawings of peoples pets, but it would drive me insane, so I paint more or less what I like to paint, but primarily only subject matter which I know will sell. Commercial galleries only hang commercial art, and no one works simply to cover overheads. Profit margins can vary alarmingly and it is this that can determine whether or not the seller or buyer (in the terms of an auction) feels 'ripped off'.

You can't really be ripped off if you're aware of these premiums before hand.

[SHOOTEMUP]

Well said that man !

All Auctions show the costs in black and white

If you dont like the costs Dont bid !

 

Well said very true Bosh!

[fern01]

I recently sold a load of stuff via an auction house in South Yorkshire and at the valuation / appraisal stage I negotiated the sellers premium down to !8 % including vat.

 

It was good stuff which they knew would sell well and didn't want to pass the opportunity onto their rivals.

 

Its worth a try.

 

By the way eBay & Paypal charges together amount to 15% and you have all the hassle of listing, packing, posting etc etc.

[RossEM]

At the end of the day, you don't have to buy at auction and if you get stung by not taking commission into consideration, tough luck. But it's entirely possible to get huge bargains by buying at auction - you just have to make yourself aware of the process!

 

Hi RossEM

 

I agree you can get some real bargains at auction including commission, that is the name of the game and I will keep using other houses if I need another gun. But it's the 25% plus VAT which I find outrages.

Out of interest do you know why sellers of guns use auction houses because they can't get much from most guns sold. I can understand the person who is selling Grandad's pair of H&H etc and old stock clearance for RFD's, but do general joe public bother. It's the last place I'd sell a gun but the first place I look to buy.

 

I think vendors receive more money by selling at auction than by selling to a dealer/shop (especially if the gun happens to be an English BLNE.) Private sales are the way forward if you don't want to pay commission of any sort.

[12boreblue]

I was thinking of going to an auction to buy some shooting bits, then I read the terms!!!There is only one real winner at an Auction, and that's without the 'plants' in the audience that 'up' the bids, used to happen a lot at the livestock auctions.

[wildrover77]

I was thinking of going to an auction to buy some shooting bits, then I read the terms!!!There is only one real winner at an Auction, and that's without the 'plants' in the audience that 'up' the bids, used to happen a lot at the livestock auctions.

I have picked up a lot of bargains at auctions. I have also seen a lot of fools pay silly money.

[Gunman]

Its because they can and while people will buy and pay they will keep doing it . If every one refused to pay it or just didn't buy then they might just have a re-think .

[al4x]

It's because they are running a business, look at the 60 to 100% markup lots of shops operate at and they start to look like a bargain

[birdsallpl]

It's because they are running a business, look at the 60 to 100% markup lots of shops operate at and they start to look like a bargain

It's a bit different to retail though isn't it. Retail you have to invest in stock. Auction houses have no stock

[joecash]

when i was a lad the seller paid a 10% commission to the auction house and that was it. Nowadays as peeps have said the auction houses, take a large cut, from both the buyer and the seller, ending up with a very nice slice thank you very much. Then there are the hangers on squeezing a slice from internet bidders, Conflicts of interest and rip offs? who knows

[RossEM]

At the end of the day, you don't have to buy at auction and if you get stung by not taking commission into consideration, tough luck. But it's entirely possible to get huge bargains by buying at auction - you just have to make yourself aware of the process!

 

Hi RossEM

 

I agree you can get some real bargains at auction including commission, that is the name of the game and I will keep using other houses if I need another gun. But it's the 25% plus VAT which I find outrages.

Out of interest do you know why sellers of guns use auction houses because they can't get much from most guns sold. I can understand the person who is selling Grandad's pair of H&H etc and old stock clearance for RFD's, but do general joe public bother. It's the last place I'd sell a gun but the first place I look to buy.

My own opinion is, and I know this from experience, that people choose to sell at auction because a lot of shops will literally give you £25 for your old side by side boxlock non ejector, whereas you'd get back a fair bit more at auction. Again, a secondhand Beretta 686 20 bore will normally reach £750-£800 at auction, but a shop or RFD will offer you £500-£550. I quite agree that auctions tend to be a better place to buy - that doesn't just stand for guns, unless your item is very unusual, collectable or otherwise desirable. I am surprised at the rates of commission that some places charge - ultimately 'prestige' counts for a lot, and if your gun has been through Sotheby's (for instance) that will actually add to it's value. Holt's, not so much.

It's because they are running a business, look at the 60 to 100% markup lots of shops operate at and they start to look like a bargain

Nail hit right on the head there.

[joe joe]

its total rip off ,     little posh boys ,  making big bucks out of clowns with pay off s and pensions pots , for  1970s scrap   yard  rubbish,      fools  and money ,  backed   up by sad tv programs , in few year these cars will be worth   nothing ,  most you today can't wait to get 1970s maxi  what fun 

[bostonmick]

Easily sorted just don't buy from auctions. They will then have a choice drop the greed or go out of business.