aris Posted December 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 I the end, after all the drama, and two hostages dead, it appears that the guy was armed with just a shotgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byjovecarruthers Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) I the end, after all the drama, and two hostages dead, it appears that the guy was armed with just a shotgun. The phrase "just a shotgun" is often uttered by the same sort of people who wonder "why didn't the police just shoot him in the legs or better still shoot the gun out of his hands?" I wasn't aware the specifics appertaining to this tragic and atrocious incident whereby two innocent people lost their lives had been made public yet. I really think describing this as "after all the drama" is fairly thoughtless and a little crass. Edited December 16, 2014 by byjovecarruthers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted December 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) The phrase "just a shotgun" is often uttered by the same sort of people who wonder "why didn't the police just shoot him in the legs or better still shoot the gun out of his hands?" I wasn't aware the specifics appertaining to this tragic and atrocious incident whereby two innocent people lost their lives had been made public yet. I really think describing this as "after all the drama" is fairly thoughtless and a little crass. My point was that one man with a shotgun can cause a lot of havoc. Considering what took place, one would have thought he would be armed to the hilt. Air space was closed, the whole CBD was shut town and evacuated, mobile phone coverage was blacked out. All with good reason of course. But it was just one man, with one shotgun. I suspect this 'lone terrorist' scenario is the one that worries the police the most - as they act independently and no tripwire is triggered as with groups who communicate with each other. Think about this incident and how the general public may perceive you next time you are out with your gun slip over your shoulder in any public space. Edited December 16, 2014 by aris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleFieldRelics Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Imagine if australia had similar guns laws to the states and one of the hostages was carrying. Draconian gun laws condemned them to their fate. Guns laws need to be relaxed if anything so a law abiding citizen of sound mine can defend themselves and their loved ones should they need too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Imagine if australia had similar guns laws to the states and one of the hostages was carrying. Draconian gun laws condemned them to their fate. Guns laws need to be relaxed if anything so a law abiding citizen of sound mine can defend themselves and their loved ones should they need too. +1 Amen to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted December 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Imagine if australia had similar guns laws to the states and one of the hostages was carrying. Draconian gun laws condemned them to their fate. Guns laws need to be relaxed if anything so a law abiding citizen of sound mine can defend themselves and their loved ones should they need too. Cuts both ways though - the gunman/gunmen would also probably have more firepower, flak jackets, and would be prepared for dealing with any possible firearms held by hostages. In the end, those who hold the element of surprise have the upper hand. From what i've read, the police stormed the cafe after they heard a gunshot from inside - which was precipitated by the gunman starting to nod off and one of the hostages (the store manager) having a go at his shotgun. She was shot in the struggle. I'm not sure how the second person killed was shot. While the armed populace idea is a romantic one, you can't guarantee that someone being a hero on the day is 1) a good marksman 2) understands the full consequences of what his actions may have on others in any particular situation. In a scenario like this it could well have ended up as an all-out shoot-out between civilians and gunmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) As the old saying goes in the land of the blind the one eyed man has to be king I do not think that changing the UK or Australian gun laws would make it safer for anyone guns are needed for pest control and as the bad people will always be able to get hold of guns it is a good thing to have some members of the public having access to arms of some sort should something bad ever happen. Edited December 16, 2014 by four-wheel-drive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longspoon Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 A viper in the nest......should never have been there let alone on bail..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 A viper in the nest......should never have been there let alone on bail..... Yes a pathetic excuse of a human who was apparently too hardline even for the mullas in Iran I despair at those cases where alarm bells should have gone into overdrive, hence why when billions are spent on locking up people that are known to be innocent it makes it even harder to stomach. This guy should have been shot through the glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Good to see the Australian PrimeMinister is starting to ask some questions that may prove very difficult to answer! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-30490696 Edited December 16, 2014 by TIGHTCHOKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Good to see the Australian PrimeMinister is starting to ask some questions that may prove very difficult to answer! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-30490696 I heard him on the radio this morning asking these questions, and thought it interesting because it was so different to how UK politicians in Government react, which is generally to go on the defensive about what a fine job is done the rest of the time when bad things arent happening, rather than being frank about wanting answers on failings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Yes his approach was refreshing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Imagine if australia had similar guns laws to the states and one of the hostages was carrying. Draconian gun laws condemned them to their fate. Guns laws need to be relaxed if anything so a law abiding citizen of sound mine can defend themselves and their loved ones should they need too. Exactly, one of the few sensible comments on Pigeon Watch. Be careful BattlefieldRelics, you are prone to be labeled a "weirdo" by people on here who take the moral high ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 While the armed populace idea is a romantic one, you can't guarantee that someone being a hero on the day is 1) a good marksman 2) understands the full consequences of what his actions may have on others in any particular situation. In a scenario like this it could well have ended up as an all-out shoot-out between civilians and gunmen. Conceal carriers are better shots than police. You can have a look for that study in my other thread: "Relaxation of Russian Gun Laws". The truth is that conceal carriers overwhelmingly stop or deter viiolent insane criminals from perpetrating their attacks or even stop those attacks dead in their tracks...literally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longspoon Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Yes a pathetic excuse of a human who was apparently too hardline even for the mullas in Iran I despair at those cases where alarm bells should have gone into overdrive, hence why when billions are spent on locking up people that are known to be innocent it makes it even harder to stomach. This guy should have been shot through the glass. A good point Hamster, the view we saw on the news appeared to give a good unobstructed firing line...could arguably put an end to it there and then...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 A good point Hamster, the view we saw on the news appeared to give a good unobstructed firing line...could arguably put an end to it there and then...... I think they were worried about the claim of explosives being planted elsewhere and the prospect of him working in conjunction with someone else maybe at that time they could not take the shot for fear of a greater consequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypig Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 How about a safely negotiated conclusion.... Boring to those who like the tacticool and the thought of critical shots... But a negotiated settlement is far far better than putting the hostages, rescuers and subject in harms way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Has there been any information supplied about the gunshot from inside the cafe. I know the speculation was that the coffee shop manager jumped the gunman and that caused the shot to be fired. Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that had that not happened the negotiators would have prevailed in ending the siege without force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 I thought Terry Waites comments were interesting, his take on surviving a hostage crisis was to not engage with the hostage taker unless you had to, keep eyes down to avoid confrontation and try not to show emotion in any way as it can escalate and provoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Has there been any information supplied about the gunshot from inside the cafe Two civilians got shot and killed, about 4-5 injured and also one of the officers first in was shot in the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwizard Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Around 40 years ago my shooting mentor, some 40 years older than me said one day......Enjoy what shooting you can because it will never be any better than this. Of course as a no nothing early 20 year old it was just a comment that was politely accepted but quickly forgotten. At that time I owned.... 9mm, .22, .38, .45, .25 pistols. Kalashnikov converted to semi auto. 5 shot shotgun on a SG ticket. .22, .308 and .303 rifles on an open ticket. .410 shot pistol. Shotguns in .410, 16g, 12g, 8g. Now as a 65 year old, I say to the 20 year olds......sadly.......enjoy what shooting you can because it will never be any better than this. I remember that time well and having similar guns and thinking about buying an 8 shot SPAS for practical shotgun shooting (glad I didn't after) never thought we would have the restrictions we have now in UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuddster Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 I wondered how long the question of shooting him through glass door would take to be asked on here. the shot was never on. the subject was standing obligue to a reinforced glass door-the door would have stripped the round, destabilise it, rendering it ineffective. most likely outcome of an ineffective hit is that he would have turned on the hostages and opened fire. that leaves a long time for the emergency action plan to be activated, meanwhile more time for the subject to harm more hostages. even a two rifle team (first shot breaks glass then 2nd backs up) would not have been authorised. it was never going to end well. f. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 I wondered how long the question of shooting him through glass door would take to be asked on here. the shot was never on. the subject was standing obligue to a reinforced glass door-the door would have stripped the round, destabilise it, rendering it ineffective. most likely outcome of an ineffective hit is that he would have turned on the hostages and opened fire. that leaves a long time for the emergency action plan to be activated, meanwhile more time for the subject to harm more hostages. even a two rifle team (first shot breaks glass then 2nd backs up) would not have been authorised. it was never going to end well. f. You'd have thought sniper teams would be well equipped with data and the right type of ammo to use in these situations. I do wonder quite how ineffective a very heavy solid bullet would be through even toughened glass. As for not knowing whether he was armed with home made bombs it seems there were people calling their friends from inside so surely within half an hour critical info would have been assessed and available ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuddster Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 You'd have thought sniper teams would be well equipped with data and the right type of ammo to use in these situations. I do wonder quite how ineffective a very heavy solid bullet would be through even toughened glass. As for not knowing whether he was armed with home made bombs it seems there were people calling their friends from inside so surely within half an hour critical info would have been assessed and available ? rifle officers train shooting through different glass such as laminated windescreens, float and wire reinforced and yes they record the data. You 'd be suprised at the effect glass has on round-even top notch ammo like trophy bonded bearclaw. f. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Conceal carriers are better shots than police. You can have a look for that study in my other thread: "Relaxation of Russian Gun Laws". The truth is that conceal carriers overwhelmingly stop or deter viiolent insane criminals from perpetrating their attacks or even stop those attacks dead in their tracks...literally. You need to take it easy on 'Call of Duty' It's starting to influence your real life thinking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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