mr smith Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Lol, thats the first stated illegality on PW this year and i have only been on two Minutes Really which bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Really which bit? I was wondering about that too. Meeting up in the farmyard suggests something preplanned: An order previously placed and now delivered and paid for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Dealing centrefire ammo off certified RFD business premises. Surely they are delivering pre ordered stock to a customer. Unless they just drive a van full of ammo around on the off chance.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Got a link? 22/8/2012 The Guardian, anybody and everybody who wants to pay can have any information.You can even find out what ,when and how much your neighbours paid for the properties if you part with £2 with the land registry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69chris Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Got a link? aint read it yet but its prob this one in northern ireland.......... http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/aug/23/arms-licence-northern-ireland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 It gets even better, and it may only be a rumour but I wouldn't put Durham passed it.Apprently Experian credit checks to check out potential SGC/FAC applicants financial status. The reason being potential to self harm if in debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 After having filled out all certificates back at base? Cert would have to filled out by the delivery man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Lol, thats the first stated illegality on PW this year and i have only been on two Minutes I'd better tell him then; he's been supplying us for years. Last time he called in he had 7 shotguns in the back also. You'd think he would know better, being an RFD, wouldn't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 So is it legal to buy guns and ammo from game fares and alike ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Well I am one and have been told In no uncertain terms that 'your business adress is your business address'. There are procedures by which you can deal away from your business address but the back of a van isn't one of them. Dealing at game fairs etc requires a temporary permit available at minimal cost from the local police force covering the location. So how do these procedures work then? Is being 'told in no uncertain terms' the same as being illegal as you state? We ring our dealer up, or he takes orders from us if we see him at a game fair for gear he doesn't have with him. He then brings it with him when he's doing his regular runs of deliveries, we pay him, he fills in our certificates and goes on his merry way. I have also bought a CF rifle from a RFD who delivered it to my home in his crew-cab pick up while on his way to do some shooting in Scotland. He also took away another two I was part-exing for it. Another RFD I paid a deposit to for a gun at a game fair offered to drop it off and pick up the one I was part-exing and fill out my certificate when he came past doing his 'rounds' also. At a local clay ground one of the shooters used to turn up with a van loaded with cartridges he would sell to all the local shooters. So just what are the legalities/illegalities of doing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 So how do these procedures work then? Is being 'told in no uncertain terms' the same as being illegal as you state? We ring our dealer up, or he takes orders from us if we see him at a game fair for gear he doesn't have with him. He then brings it with him when he's doing his regular runs of deliveries, we pay him, he fills in our certificates and goes on his merry way. I have also bought a CF rifle from a RFD who delivered it to my home in his crew-cab pick up while on his way to do some shooting in Scotland. He also took away another two I was part-exing for it. Another RFD I paid a deposit to for a gun at a game fair offered to drop it off and pick up the one I was part-exing and fill out my certificate when he came past doing his 'rounds' also. At a local clay ground one of the shooters used to turn up with a van loaded with cartridges he would sell to all the local shooters. So just what are the legalities/illegalities of doing this? Does anyone have any answers to this ? I only ask as Fister reckons this is illegal. Personally I don't as I can't believe a RFD would risk his livelihood by doing this, but I'm no RFD nor expert and therefore if it is then my mates and me are committing an illegal act also. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Can find no reference to an offence in the legislation as long as the transaction is done by an RFD and logged it seems fine unless there is a stipulation on the RFD cert? That all transactions must occur on the named premises? But then still legal as there is an exemption to deliver the goods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Can find no reference to an offence in the legislation as long as the transaction is done by an RFD and logged it seems fine unless there is a stipulation on the RFD cert? That all transactions must occur on the named premises? But then still legal as there is an exemption to deliver the goods. Thanks HDAV. Oh there is some real fun going on behind the scenes, I concentrate on what I do but cannot help but wonder about what i see happening on occasions. It will bite us all in the end. The plot thickens. So by this do you mean it IS illegal? If so can you point to a link regarding the legislation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 They can do what they like, i won't and don't. So what you really mean is you don't know. Thought so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Dealing centrefire ammo off certified RFD business premises. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) It's a condition on most RFDs certificates that they can only conduct business from any of their listed premises (this can for examples be a game fair). Edited January 1, 2015 by welshwarrior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) Do you have an RFD? Do I have a Registered Firearms Dealer? The question doesn't make sense to be honest. If you mean do I know a RFD, then yes, I know quite a few, three of which are local to me. Perhaps I should ask one of them as you don't know. It's a very simple question to answer, or so I thought, but you seem reluctant to qualify your initial statement for some reason, so I can only assume you're attempting to save face because you can't point to the legislation that states what we are doing is illegal, as you claim. Edited January 1, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Come on Scully................... I'm here......not going anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Come on Scully........I have/am an RFD (the letters alone commonly refer to the certificate) and i dont seek out to google a legal definition, I do what it says on my certificate and what I am told by my licensing officer. When first expanding my defined business purposes from testing to include retail, I specifically asked these questions and was told without doubt the rules i had to follow. It seems a few other members who also have RFD certification are now also saying the same.......... Fair enough, but you still haven't categorically stated that what we are doing is illegal, as you claimed in your initial post, along with your 'lol', and neither has any of the other Registered Firearms Dealers on PW. Only one other RFD that I know of on here has said that it is a condition on 'most' RFD's cert's, but you still seem reluctant to state that what we are doing is illegal, although you now claim there are 'rules' you have to follow. Are 'rules' considered legislation? If there's a chance that we could be implicated in an illegal act carried out as part of illegal transactions then I would like to know; there seems to be quite a few illegally acting RFD's out there that I know of otherwise, putting their livelihoods at risk. Unless you can back up what you claim then I'll have to ask the RFD who supplies us. He's taking one helluva risk according to you, and I think I would be suspicious if he had ever mentioned that we should keep schtum about these dealings. He doesn't even know what any of us do for a living; for all he knows one of us could be a copper. Strange. If it's illegal then it shouldn't be too difficult to find the legislation that covers it, though admittedly I haven't looked too hard as I'm pretty sure if it were illegal they wouldn't be doing it. Are you sure the RFD's I've dealt with in this manner aren't simply delivering goods ordered or bought, even if it's from 'the back of a van'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 You do as you like, my amusement was that within minutes of looking at PW this morning i was already questioning and anticipating what i read and where it would lead. You ask your RFD and do let me and others know. Since my licensing dept hold the keys to my job I play the game I'm asked to, as stated on my certificate. I dont do it but as far as im aware delivery of goods requires 'prior' paperwork to delivery itself. Oh and just to wind you up more, i wont supply FAC goods without a photocopy of the licence for my records to prove i have seen it if questioned and have a visual reference of all conditions required. Paranoia over data protection and security is pretty hollow as all the information is recorded by the dealer in his/her register regardless anyway and that is subject to as much security as the guns themselves and data protection anyway. While you are at it, ask about business liability insurance too, its expensive and regularly ignored. Just out of interest are RFD's generally registered as the Data controllers and have Data Protection Licences? As they would need one as they are holding peoples personal data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 At a local clay ground one of the shooters used to turn up with a van loaded with cartridges he would sell to all the local shooters. So just what are the legalities/illegalities of doing this? You only need RFD for guns and s1 ammunition, S/gun ammunition you do not need to even have a certificate to possess it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 How does this square up with anyone transferring, giving or selling S1 ammo to another cert holder. Example >> If a mate of mine runs out of 223 rounds and I have spare available then I can give, sell, loan those rounds to him >> (always that he has the required possession authority) and I fill in the cert for this. We could do this anywhere. >> My kitchen, a farmyard shed or a vehicle. As long as the paperwork is correct then how is a dealer doing wrong by arranging to meet up along route. It is all well and good just doing what you are told but in the end the trade will get strangled by red tape. Far to many people just roll over and accept what they are told and if this comes from any force or feo, it is likely to be just made up as they go along until they are strongly questioned and made to justify the line. What usually happens is that they back off especially if it will incur any sort of expense. Because they don’t have a pot to urinate into and more swinging cuts are on the way even if the monster raving loonies get in next time. Anyone got a pushbike spare that they could lend them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Does anyone have any answers to this ? I only ask as Fister reckons this is illegal. Personally I don't as I can't believe a RFD would risk his livelihood by doing this, but I'm no RFD nor expert and therefore if it is then my mates and me are committing an illegal act also. Anyone? Just for the record the offence is in the act it's. 39 Offences in connection with registration. (2)A person commits an offence if, being a registered firearms dealer, he has a place of business which is not entered in the register for the area in which the place of business is situated and carries on business as a firearms dealer at that place. In simple terms if like just cartridges do he accepts a fax or electronic copy of the licence then take payment over the phone the place of business is classed where the RFD received the payment and fax. If however you are filling paperwork or taking payment in the back of a van then that would be classed as the place of business as that's where the transaction was completed. So unless the farm yard is on the police register as his place of business he is breaking the law as an RFD for CF and guns or supplying shotgun cartridges without seeing your licence and receiving payment at his place of business before setting off. He can try and argue that that it is not the place of business but if at the farm yard he requires payment or mandatory paperwork to be seen or filled in then he will be fighting a losing battle. Would you or your mates get done, I doubt it as you are not going to know or be able to check the register but he is breaking the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 How does this square up with anyone transferring, giving or selling S1 ammo to another cert holder. Example >> If a mate of mine runs out of 223 rounds and I have spare available then I can give, sell, loan those rounds to him >> (always that he has the required possession authority) and I fill in the cert for this. We could do this anywhere. >> My kitchen, a farmyard shed or a vehicle. As long as the paperwork is correct then how is a dealer doing wrong by arranging to meet up along route. It is all well and good just doing what you are told but in the end the trade will get strangled by red tape. Far to many people just roll over and accept what they are told and if this comes from any force or feo, it is likely to be just made up as they go along until they are strongly questioned and made to justify the line. What usually happens is that they back off especially if it will incur any sort of expense. Because they dont have a pot to urinate into and more swinging cuts are on the way even if the monster raving loonies get in next time. Anyone got a pushbike spare that they could lend them? It's not business it's just a private sale/gift so only the f2f rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Just for the record the offence is in the act it's. 39 Offences in connection with registration. (2)A person commits an offence if, being a registered firearms dealer, he has a place of business which is not entered in the register for the area in which the place of business is situated and carries on business as a firearms dealer at that place. In simple terms if like just cartridges do he accepts a fax or electronic copy of the licence then take payment over the phone the place of business is classed where the RFD received the payment and fax. If however you are filling paperwork or taking payment in the back of a van then that would be classed as the place of business as that's where the transaction was completed. So unless the farm yard is on the police register as his place of business he is breaking the law as an RFD for CF and guns or supplying shotgun cartridges without seeing your licence and receiving payment at his place of business before setting off. He can try and argue that that it is not the place of business but if at the farm yard he requires payment or mandatory paperwork to be seen or filled in then he will be fighting a losing battle. Would you or your mates get done, I doubt it as you are not going to know or be able to check the register but he is breaking the law. I'm not thick Timps ( honestly, just a little slow ) and I'm sincerely grateful for the above, especially as there's no derogatory sarcasm involved, but two of your lines above seem to contradict each other unless I've misunderstood; those highlighted in bold italics. The RFD in question has seen our tickets on many occasions, but prior to paying a deposit for a CF rifle at a game fair he hadn't seen it as it was undergoing renewal. He brought the rifle to my house where he completed the paperwork and took payment in full. As for the CF ammo, this was ordered at another game fair, but no deposit was paid. The transaction was completed by payment and the relevant paperwork completed from the back of his van in a farmyard while he was en route to conduct business elsewhere. He isn't the only RFD we have dealt with in a similar manner. For example, another whom I bought a shotgun off, took a deposit from me without seeing my SGC (I didn't take it so I couldn't be tempted, but it didn't work ) and offered to 'drop it off' while on his 'rounds' , and pick up another I'd part-exed in the deal. Are there any circumstances to a RFD's register where they are allowed to do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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