The Lynx effect

[Guttersnipe]

With the proposed plans to introduce up to 18 European Lynx into three UK sites; Thetford Forrest, South Cumbria and Aberdeenshire, being in the news this morning, I'm interested in opinions from the members.

There is clearly a potential impact on stalking and livestock but the arguments put forward refer to the "exploding deer population" requiring control, the lack of any apex predators and the potential tourist revenue to rural communities.Whilst there is clearly a long way to go before this is instigated it has been successfully undertaken in several European countries.

 

The Lynx is clearly a spectacular animal, but I feel the realistic benefits through tourism and deer predation are minuscule compared to the negative effect to livestock and stalkers. In my opinion it is unrealistic to believe Lynx can replace effective deer control by an experienced stalker or will ever be seen by tourists, but if these animals are introduced and spread, are the authorities likely to allow stalking alongside such an animal?

 

GS

 

[Richie10]

The amount of animals they are releasing will have little affect on deer populations. They will grow fat on pheasants or muntjacs around thetford and sheep in Cumbria.

[scutt]

They offered Germany as an example but did not give any idea of the size of the area they are released inn Am I right in thinking Germany has larger expanses of woodland than we have in Britain some one on PW will know .

[Suffolkngood]

Thetford Forrest is crawling with public, dogs and military. Can't see them settling down at all. Keepers and farmers will protect their game and lambs. Non starter if you ask me.

[Pothunter]

They offered Germany as an example but did not give any idea of the size of the area they are released inn Am I right in thinking Germany has larger expanses of woodland than we have in Britain some one on PW will know .

Germany: forest cover accounts for 31% of its 357,000 km2

UK: forest cover accounts for 12% of its 245,000 km2

[scutt]

Germany: forest cover accounts for 31% of its 357,000 km2

UK: forest cover accounts for 12% of its 245,000 km2

cheers for that Pothunter now whats the difference in human population

[Suffolkngood]

Thetford Forrest is 47,000 acres

[Pothunter]

cheers for that Pothunter now whats the difference in human population

Germany is 80 million. UK is 65 million.

[TimeDrags]

According to Telegraph last weekend bigger problem is exploding boar numbers rather than deer

 

Wonder who would win that fight - boar or lynx ??

[panoma1]

I wonder what the reaction will be when a Lynx attacks a dog, child or adult?

 

I was at a nature centre some years ago with my wife, whilst walking past the Lynx enclosure, a Lynx that was sunning its self on a mound of earth was watching/tracking us, suddenly without warning it rose and charged some 15 yards at full tilt directly at me and bounced off the wire fence!........if the fence wasn't there?

So please don't tell me Lynx are no threat to humans!

[scutt]

Germany is 80 million. UK is 65 million.

looks to me to be less populated with larger suitable release area in Germany.So no real comparison to the UK.

[clakk]

where the eejits reintroduced coyotes in areas of america and protected them livestock are often killed as a food source.theres many a report of horse ,cattle and sheep taken as well as near misses on people and kids.its going to end in tears ,ramblers and hikers are no match for a Lynx at full tilt.when the lambs and calves start getting attacked the farmers are going to want them shot .this will end badly ,how many pigeon shooters/stalkers in the middle of nowhere have been disturbed by dog walkers .britain isnt big enough for such daftness .if the tree huggers disagree let them overnight with the lynx in twycross zoo and let us know how they get on.

[ollie]

According to Telegraph last weekend bigger problem is exploding boar numbers rather than deer

 

Wonder who would win that fight - boar or lynx ??

 

Does anyone really think a Lynx is going to take on a boar? No it's going to go a field beside the forest & have some tasty lamb aswell.

 

Lovely animals but I can't see the benefit of reintroducing them into our countryside.

[anser2]

We have a major problem with deer in the UK and could do with culling at least 60% of them. I work in a wood that has muntjac , roe and red plus the occasional fallow. It is imposable to find any bramble in the 1000 acres that does not have some sort of damage. And large areas of the wood now have no bramble. The main culprits are roe and muntjac here. Bramble is a vital wildlife component of a broad leaf woodland with their flowers coming out in mid summer after the spring flush of wild flowers and before the main mid summer flowers. There are the only nectar source for our butterflies and bees in the wood at that time. later when the bramble is in fruit it is an important source of food for voles , wood mice and dormice , plus many butterflies feed on the sugars present in the berries and it is a major source of food for many birds. Every spring and autumn I do a deer damage assessment in the woods and on a scale of 1 to 3 a decade ago the damage was 1.25 , the last three surveys have been 3.

last winter the stalkers took out 60 roe and muntjac , but they need to treble this to have any real effect. We have lost some plants including orchids as the deer graze the flowers and after years of not seeding they just die out. Bluebells are also heavily grazed in some southern oak woods muntjac have exterminated bluebells. The main red damage has come from severe damage to the coppice and they have killed many stools. Some of the coppice stools date back hundreds of years. We had to made a choice some years ago , protect the coppice by erecting 2.5km of deer fencing or stop coppicing The latter course would have had the effect of the coppicing growing and shading out the ground flora which in tern would result in the loss of many plant species such as the violets which are the only food plant of our dark green and silver washed fritillaries so we would also lost many insects which in turn our nightingales, redstarts ect depend on. We choose to put up electric fences which cost thousands ( money which could have been spent on woodland management to improve them for wildlife ) and is effective for reds , but only partially effective for roe and muntjac. The stalkers have reduced our red herd from almost 100 animals to around 20 , but despite heavy shooting more and more reds come in from other woods in the area and we do not seem to be able to get the numbers any lower. We aim for a herd of around a dozen.

 

Do not get me wrong we want our native deer in the woods ( reds and roe ) but in moderation. So are deer a problem , clearly yes to our native wildlife and I have not even touched on the damage deer do to the surrounding arable crops , its not just what they eat , so see a field of wheat that a heard of red deer lay out in by day and the amount they flatten is amazing.

 

So will Lynx help ? in the short term no. There are just too many deer for them to have any impact on and without a serious cull to reduce national deer numbers I doubt Lynx will ever have much of an impact. There are only so many deer a lynx can eat in a year. But there is a high risk that lynx will have a impact on game and livestock though I gather there has never been an incident of a lynx attacking a human. I feel we just do not have enough room in the English countryside for them.

The lynx introduction has a lot in common with the sea eagle project in England , its a nice idea , but it is likely to cause more problems than it will cure.

Edited April 29, 2015 by anser2

[scotslad]

It is a typical ridiculas idea, plus in germany many of the forests will lie into/join onto masive forests in other countries (poland) it really is a completetly different scale. 47,000 acres is a far lump of wood land at theftford but i'd imagine it has roads, RoW's and possibly even houses and villages scattered throu that 47k acres so not just 47k acres of wilderness.

Not sure wot size it is bu i'd imagine 20ish miles? square, not a massivedistance for a cat to walk in 1 or 2 nights. Althou lynx tend to not roam too much in habitat is right.

 

It makes more sense introing lynx than wolf's but is still a really stupid idea, even in the remoteness of N scotland and definately not further south far too many people never mind stock.

 

In theory there is a set of criteria that should be met before any intro like this should even be thought about plus a lengthy vaibility study, i would seriously doubt lynx would pass many.

Really expensive too.

I doubt it won't work but if it does u will have an even bigger problem, if lynx numbers grow to such an extent they control deer numbers and reduce them. Wot are this higher number of lynx going to eat and survive off?? Fairly obviously going to be live stock, if they don't target stock from the start

 

 

Anser Wot type of elecy fence system are u using for the deer??

Seen a double fence/NZ type system work very well in the past althou not in woodland situations. Might be worth a try if ur not already using it althou never heard of it being ried on Munties but works on roe and red

[Pothunter]

 

We have a major problem with deer in the UK and could do with culling at least 60% of them. I work in a wood that has muntjac , roe and red plus the occasional fallow. It is imposable to find any bramble in the 1000 acres that does not have some sort of damage. And large areas of the wood now have no bramble. The main culprits are roe and muntjac here. Bramble is a vital wildlife component of a broad leaf woodland with their flowers coming out in mid summer after the spring flush of wild flowers and before the main mid summer flowers. There are the only nectar source for our butterflies and bees in the wood at that time. later when the bramble is in fruit it is an important source of food for voles , wood mice and dormice , plus many butterflies feed on the sugars present in the berries and it is a major source of food for many birds. Every spring and autumn I do a deer damage assessment in the woods and on a scale of 1 to 3 a decade ago the damage was 1.25 , the last three surveys have been 3.

 

last winter the stalkers took out 60 roe and muntjac , but they need to treble this to have any real effect. We have lost some plants including orchids as the deer graze the flowers and after years of not seeding they just die out. Bluebells are also heavily grazed in some southern oak woods muntjac have exterminated bluebells. The main red damage has come from severe damage to the coppice and they have killed many stools. Some of the coppice stools date back hundreds of years. We had to made a choice some years ago , protect the coppice by erecting 2.5km of deer fencing or stop coppicing The latter course would have had the effect of the coppicing growing and shading out the ground flora which in tern would result in the loss of many plant species such as the violets which are the only food plant of our dark green and silver washed fritillaries so we would also lost many insects which in turn out nightingales, redstarts ect depend on. We choose to put up electric fences which cost thousands ( money which could have been spent on woodland management to improve them for wildlife ) and is effective for reds , but only partially effective for roe and muntjac. The stalkers have reduced our red herd from almost 100 animals to around 20 , but despite heavy shooting more and more reds come in from other woods in the area and we do not seem to be able to get the numbers any lower. We aim for a herd of around a dozen.

 

Do not get me wrong we want our native deer in the woods ( reds and roe ) but in moderation. So are deer a problem , clearly yes to our native wildlife and I have not even touched on the damage deer do to the surrounding arable crops , its not just what they eat , so see a field of wheat that a heard of red deer lay out in by day and the amount they flatten is amazing.

 

So will Lynx help ? in the short term no. There are just too many deer for them to have any impact on and without a serious cull to reduce national deer numbers I doubt Lynx will ever have much of an impact. There are only so many deer a lynx can eat in a year. But there is a high risk that lynx will have a impact on game and livestock though I gather there has never been an incident of a lynx attacking a human. I feel we just do not have enough room in the English countryside for them.

 

The lynx introduction has a lot in common with the sea eagle project in England , its a nice idea , but it is likely to cause more problems than it will cure.

Very interesting post. Thanks a lot for taking the time.

[islandgun]

what animal would chase a deer around if there were sheep and lambs to be had

[malmick]

Thanks to anser2 and scotslad for your contributions, interesting topic. Sounds like we could do with more widespread and coordinated culling by stalkers. There must be swathes of qualified stalkers out there who could do this if it were managed properly.

[old man]

The only conclusion here is that it would end badly?

 

We only need to consider the absolutely disastrous effects eventually of introduced species worldwide on indigenous species?

 

The deer population will remain at record levels because the majority of stalkers can't get access to the deer for many reasons?

 

Also where introductions have been made in the past I believe that the areas available are fer greater than we have here.

 

Of course as is usual here, the idiots who were instrumental in the policy will be nowhere to be seen to be held accountable?

[rodp]

 

We have a major problem with deer in the UK and could do with culling at least 60% of them. I work in a wood that has muntjac , roe and red plus the occasional fallow. It is imposable to find any bramble in the 1000 acres that does not have some sort of damage. And large areas of the wood now have no bramble. The main culprits are roe and muntjac here. Bramble is a vital wildlife component of a broad leaf woodland with their flowers coming out in mid summer after the spring flush of wild flowers and before the main mid summer flowers. There are the only nectar source for our butterflies and bees in the wood at that time. later when the bramble is in fruit it is an important source of food for voles , wood mice and dormice , plus many butterflies feed on the sugars present in the berries and it is a major source of food for many birds. Every spring and autumn I do a deer damage assessment in the woods and on a scale of 1 to 3 a decade ago the damage was 1.25 , the last three surveys have been 3.

last winter the stalkers took out 60 roe and muntjac , but they need to treble this to have any real effect. We have lost some plants including orchids as the deer graze the flowers and after years of not seeding they just die out. Bluebells are also heavily grazed in some southern oak woods muntjac have exterminated bluebells. The main red damage has come from severe damage to the coppice and they have killed many stools. Some of the coppice stools date back hundreds of years. We had to made a choice some years ago , protect the coppice by erecting 2.5km of deer fencing or stop coppicing The latter course would have had the effect of the coppicing growing and shading out the ground flora which in tern would result in the loss of many plant species such as the violets which are the only food plant of our dark green and silver washed fritillaries so we would also lost many insects which in turn out nightingales, redstarts ect depend on. We choose to put up electric fences which cost thousands ( money which could have been spent on woodland management to improve them for wildlife ) and is effective for reds , but only partially effective for roe and muntjac. The stalkers have reduced our red herd from almost 100 animals to around 20 , but despite heavy shooting more and more reds come in from other woods in the area and we do not seem to be able to get the numbers any lower. We aim for a herd of around a dozen.

 

Do not get me wrong we want our native deer in the woods ( reds and roe ) but in moderation. So are deer a problem , clearly yes to our native wildlife and I have not even touched on the damage deer do to the surrounding arable crops , its not just what they eat , so see a field of wheat that a heard of red deer lay out in by day and the amount they flatten is amazing.

 

So will Lynx help ? in the short term no. There are just too many deer for them to have any impact on and without a serious cull to reduce national deer numbers I doubt Lynx will ever have much of an impact. There are only so many deer a lynx can eat in a year. But there is a high risk that lynx will have a impact on game and livestock though I gather there has never been an incident of a lynx attacking a human. I feel we just do not have enough room in the English countryside for them.

The lynx introduction has a lot in common with the sea eagle project in England , its a nice idea , but it is likely to cause more problems than it will cure.

 

Can I ask, do you charge the stalkers that cull the deer in your forest ? Do you have a shortage of stalkers then as they cannot cull enough deer?

[anser2]

The electric fencing we use is 6 strand powered by solar pannels producing 8,000 volts. Works well on red deer but not so good on roe. They have hollow hair and thus are insulated unless touching a ear or nose. It reduces the effect of roe , but if they realy want to get in they do. I have seen them wriggle through the wires to get in. We have 2.5 km of electric fenceing to have a double fence would be just too costly.

 

The land owner and estate does all the stalking , but because of safety issues , public access \roads \ foot paths \ houses in the woods , plus we had bad experiances with a sportsman stalker in the past.

Edited April 28, 2015 by anser2

[rodp]

Why not offer free stalking then if you have deer problems. I hear what you're saying about safety issues but there's a lot of safe stalkers about, and well insured.

 

I just don't get this "we have a deer problem" thing on one hand, and on the other they want to charge a fortune

As a last resort high seat shooting could be introduced, safe and effective if not exactly stalking. But at least then relatively large numbers of shooters could be used for effective deer management.

[scotslad]

Cheers anser

 

The NZ style i'm talking about seems to work on an eltromagnetic field? that the deer won't enter rather thaan the actual shock itself.

Basically 1 normal 2 or 3 strand electric fence mibee 1.2ish high and a second single strand elctric about 2m inside the first 1. Seemingly deer dinae like to go inbetween the 2.

 

Seen it work on a grouse moor where fenced 30k acres off to be deer free, the original stuff was 6ft high to keep the reds out but later phase only 3-4ft high and reds still dinae jump even when culled against it, or roe under it which they could do easily if they wanted. I was totally amazed it worked as it is so low and flimsy, but een in use for a long time now.

 

Might be worth experimenting with to see if it works, like i said in a woodland environment with attractive food the other side it might not work so well but shouldnae cost that much to try and u could steal some wire of ur 6 strand stuff and link the 2 together so still just 1 energiser

 

 

Rod it sounds to me like the estate are doing the oppisate and not charging a fortune but just want to do it themselves, if i was in there shoes i would be doing the same.

I seriously doubt amatuer stalkers would be up to a job on that scale but does sound like the estate need to try something different althou problem cold be due to neighbors not culling

[rodp]

Sorry, I didn't mean that estate were charging a fortune, I was speaking in general terms. Sorry for the confusion.

 

If that particular estate has a problem then why not open it to "leisure stalkers", if only from high seats ? At the very least it would be a few more gone. Easy enough to book in, sit in high seat, shoot deer, keep carcass. If it's free then you can't really moan if you don't shoot anything.

 

You do hear of some estates / permissions moaning about being over run with deer then wanting £200 plus carcass plus trophy fee !!!

It's a bit like charging someone to get rid of the rats round your chicken pen. They're either over run and need to get numbers down or they're not, simple as that.

[Richie10]

Used to do a bit of stalking but the money involved and the fact you cannot get permission anywhere has meant giving it up. There is a deer problem but they are seen more an asset than an actual pest.