Shooting pigeons , for crop protection ,response from Natural England

[fenboy]

May I ask what will cause the biggest issue to shooting the fact that I have clarified a point of law so that those who wish to follow it can .

Or the fact there seems a awful lot among us that do not know if they are following it or not , nor for that matter care ?

[neutron619]

In reply to neutron619 :

If you obey the relevant law you surely have nothing to worry about.

Fenboy got clarification on the law - where's the problem except for people who do not want to know.

Remember - Ignorance is no legal defence.

 

You've missed the point.

 

I never suggested anyone was breaking the law / provisions of the GLs. I never have so far as I'm aware - I'm sure most people here haven't.

 

I also have no objection, in principle, to Fenboy obtaining clarification of the law.

 

What I'm saying is that the way he has done it and posted his "victory" is unhelpful.

 

If someone in authority were to decide that they suspected a law had been broken on the basis of something posted here, they would very easily and very quickly make life very difficult for us. I reiterate: no law actually needs to have been broken for certificates and firearms to be seized.

 

Fenboy's actions in contacting Natural England and then doing his victory dance here merely draws attention which could encourage that person or persons in authority to pay extra attention to us, or to suspect - even in the continuing absence of actual criminality - that crimes have been committed, thus triggering the consequences I described above.

 

Of course, that's likely to be a bit subtle for some folk to understand.

[fenboy]

I see no victory dance .

 

I said I would post up the result of my email to natural england and that is what I have done , you along with plenty of others were more than happy to pour scorn on me when I tried to explain that the licence is not as simple as some suggest , now because you have been proven wrong you have decided to have a bit of a tantrum

You may shout and scream all you like but at the end of the day you were wrong , something I have always apologised for when required , seems that is the difference between myself and you neutron619 .

[stubby]

 

 

Subject to all the terms and conditions of this licence and

solely for the purpose(s) stated above, this licence permits Authorised Persons

:i.to kill or take any of the wild birds listed at (a) and (b) below, to take,

damage or destroy their nests or to take or destroy their eggs:

Woodpigeon

 

 

just because someone has read the GL, does not make them an " Authorised Persons"

having permission from the landowner makes you an Authorised Persons

[neutron619]

now because you have been proven wrong

 

Not sure I gave any opinion on the subject, old chum.

 

 

 

Looks like your strict( ) interpretation has put you a long way out on a limb there old chum.

 

Not to worry eh?

 

I think I just said it looked like your opinion put you out on a limb compared to everyone else's interpretation.

 

Let's just check again:

 

 

 

Looks like your strict( ) interpretation has put you a long way out on a limb there old chum.

 

Not to worry eh?

 

Yep - "out on a limb there old chum". That's what I said. All I said, in fact.

Edited July 28, 2015 by neutron619

[TriBsa]

 

just because someone has read the GL, does not make them an " Authorised Persons"

having permission from the landowner makes you an Authorised Persons

 

Yes, I know. My point was that if you can destroy eggs and nests (as an authorised person) it infers that you are acting to prevent future damage by controlling numbers. As a nest or eggs can only lead to future damage to crops. Therefore the Licence would seem to suggest that you can also shoot pigeons to prevent future damage to crops i.e. roost shooting and decoying over stubble.

Edited July 28, 2015 by TriBsa

[kennym]

I could very well of missed the point,... which to be honest would be pretty easy because apart from being a bit of a LOOK AT ME post there is very little tangible point, I like fenboys posts usually but this does at best seem a little self serving and at worst potentially damaging to our sport.

 

Talking of humble pie I suspect this has more to do with being right & broadcasting the fact, rather than helping others understand the GL, what's most important being right or the future good of shooting sports?

 

Back to the original point, would it not be within the terms of the GL to shoot over your masses concrete if farmer Giles had asked you too? or indeed if another permission was getting hammered, as already established with roost & stubble shooting the pests don't have to be in the act or on the crop fields at the time of them being controlled.

[fenboy]

The tangible point is there are a awful lot of people who shoot pigeon who have no idea on the law regarding it.

 

As for shooting birds over your concrete if farmer giles has asked you to then yes you could.

 

Strange this forum I get a load of flack for supposedly being wrong about something and now I am receiving it for being right about it

I think Elton had a point

[Underdog]

When errr this has all died down, errr what will it achieve?

[kennym]

The tangible point is there are a awful lot of people who shoot pigeon who have no idea on the law regarding it.

 

As for shooting birds over your concrete if farmer giles has asked you to then yes you could.

 

Strange this forum I get a load of flack for supposedly being wrong about something and now I am receiving it for being right about it

I think Elton had a point

No my friend not at all, given the confines of your original post you were indeed correct,

 

my issue and I hope you will take it as a a personal point of view not a personal attack on yourself is that maybe just maybe when you look back you can see that it would possibly of been bigger of you and potentially less damaging to simply know you were right rather than involve an outside body then post the mails between you and them on a public forum.

 

I'm not saying this is why you did it but it LOOKS like you are putting being right and making sure everybody knows it before the good of our sport, hopefully you will see how it may look to others and recognise that yes you were right but you could of done things differently. No offence intended I will continue to enjoy the majority of your posts.

[robbiep]

Before this thread gets locked down (which I'm sure will happen), I'll just say thanks to fenboy for his work on this.

 

It seems that some people just want to shoot pigeons. "Hey, there's a law that allows it in some cases, I'll twist it to make it fit for me!"

 

They should possibly recall that a conviction under WACA would mean that they are not eligible to use ANY of the GLs for a considerable amount of time, along with quite possibly their tickets being revoked.

 

But hey ho, the rest of us (who comply with the law) don't really care about them being prosecuted and losing their guns. I know I certainly don't.

 

Maybe they should give some thought as to all the bad press that shooting convictions garner. But maybe that would require them to look a little bit beyond their own self-interest.

[fenboy]

No my friend not at all, given the confines of your original post you were indeed correct,

 

my issue and I hope you will take it as a a personal point of view not a personal attack on yourself is that maybe just maybe when you look back you can see that it would possibly of been bigger of you and potentially less damaging to simply know you were right rather than involve an outside body then post the mails between you and them on a public forum.

 

I'm not saying this is why you did it but it LOOKS like you are putting being right and making sure everybody knows it before the good of our sport, hopefully you will see how it may look to others and recognise that yes you were right but you could of done things differently. No offence intended I will continue to enjoy the majority of your posts.

Not at all , I am showing all those that do not understand it how the law stands , as I received so much flack saying I was wrong do you think people would believe me if I simply said I had received clarification back and I was right ------------- Err no there would be screaming for me to "prove it" because as already being shown people cannot accept being wrong.

If this thread has educated a few or even one all the better for shooting in my opinion .

[Pushandpull]

We have been here before of course, notably when the BASC v NGO kicked off a few years ago. When the WCA is reviewed, our organisations would do us all a great favour by pressing for an open season for Wood Pigeons during the winter months, as fine sporting birds and good eating. You would then have an absolute right to shoot them in season while the General Licence would apply for crop protection in the summer. This is roughly where we used to be over Canadas.

There might be arguments over the length of the possible breeding season under the Birds Directive but this doesn't seem to have affected the season for Mallard.

[CharlieT]

I doubt very much indeed that regular members of this site do not understand the terms of the GL. Being that everyone will be shooting pigeons on farmland I find it hard to believe that the GL will not cover them in one way or another, considering that all farm enterprises are covered under the GL.

 

This daft argument was sparked off by a question on shooting pigeons on a flight line where the farm was to be reseeded with grass in the near future (we don't know what else is produced on the land), I find it hard to imagine that the original poster, as you suggested, would not be covered.

 

I'm afraid my view is that you have dug yourself into a hole and in an attempt to get out have brought daft scenarios into the equation, concrete as an example and have sought NE clarification from a non farm shooting viewpoint rather than the situation of the original question which sparked this off.

 

 

Charlie

[malkiserow]

When errr this has all died down, errr what will it achieve?

 

The perverse potshot pigeon people pretend to poke fun on posts proclaiming purporting productivity of pointless pea protection on plots of private veg piously proclaiming plod will not prosecute prepubescent protagonists on PW

Edited July 28, 2015 by malkiserow

[Royboy]

I shoot on a farm that grows crops but I also have a shoot with no crops, the shoot with no crops has a great flight line for pigeons on a windy day and it's great sport, these pigeons are going to some poor farmers crops and destroying them so can I shoot them or not ?

[fenboy]

That would depend on where the farm you have crops on is , if it is reasonably local then I guess you could , but if its not and they are eating a farmers crop where you have no permission , then no .

 

Having said that I am sure the farmer who's crop they were feeding on would have no issue with you controlling them over your existing land even if he does not want you on his.

 

The only problems I can see is if the farmer is totally anti shooting , they do exist.

Edited July 28, 2015 by fenboy

[kennym]

Not at all , I am showing all those that do not understand it how the law stands , as I received so much flack saying I was wrong do you think people would believe me if I simply said I had received clarification back and I was right ------------- Err no there would be screaming for me to "prove it" because as already being shown people cannot accept being wrong.

If this thread has educated a few or even one all the better for shooting in my opinion .

 

Unfortunately the only people it will educate are the people looking to do us harm, bottom line, you put yourself and BEING RIGHT AT ALL COSTS before the greater good, you have dug a hole & are now unwilling (or unable because of pride) to admit you went down the wrong path, good luck to you i'm sure will answer because you undoubtedly like to have the last word, so ill take my own advice and make this my last word.

 

but lastly thanks for being able to have this difference of opinion in a sensible fashion.

 

kennym

[robbiep]

I shoot on a farm that grows crops but I also have a shoot with no crops, the shoot with no crops has a great flight line for pigeons on a windy day and it's great sport, these pigeons are going to some poor farmers crops and destroying them so can I shoot them or not ?

 

If the 2 farms are close (or even reasonably close) together then yes, you can.

However, if (for example) the 2 farms were 30 miles apart, then the answer is no, as you are not shooting them for 'your' farmer's crop protection.

 

At the end of the day, it is up to you as to what you term a 'reasonable' distance away. However, I'd want to be sure I could defend my actions in a courtroom, if it came to that.

[Luckyshot]

I shoot on a farm that grows crops but I also have a shoot with no crops, the shoot with no crops has a great flight line for pigeons on a windy day and it's great sport, these pigeons are going to some poor farmers crops and destroying them so can I shoot them or not ?

 

What is on the farm you shoot then, sheep cattle? if so you are well within the law shooting pigeons on that land as they will most certainly at one point have ate some clover from these grass fields which the farmer grows to feed his animals.(clover mixed in with the grass)

[scotslad]

There is a lot of grey areas and very little will be in black and white.

And i actually think a lot of shooters and PW users do not know about the GL and the correct reasons for usung it.

 

Why can a garden owner (he will be an authorised person) not shoot a pigeon in his garden when u can shoot a roost pigeon in a wood miles from crops or on a flightline.

Slightly earlier u tried to say a home owner can shoot pigeon in his garden if it backs onto crops yet his neighbours across the road that doesnae back onto fields can't?

 

Depending how far u takes this there could easily be very large areas of upland/marignal land in UK where u should not be shooting pigeon, proabably the whole of western side scotland from glasgow up and A9 west as very few crops on west coast

 

U may be correct reguarding the law if u take it exactly by the letter (u may not be too) but really dinae think ur helping shooting much with this thread

[robbiep]

There is a lot of grey areas and very little will be in black and white.

And i actually think a lot of shooters and PW users do not know about the GL and the correct reasons for usung it.

 

Why can a garden owner (he will be an authorised person) not shoot a pigeon in his garden when u can shoot a roost pigeon in a wood miles from crops or on a flightline.

Slightly earlier u tried to say a home owner can shoot pigeon in his garden if it backs onto crops yet his neighbours across the road that doesnae back onto fields can't?

 

Depending how far u takes this there could easily be very large areas of upland/marignal land in UK where u should not be shooting pigeon, proabably the whole of western side scotland from glasgow up and A9 west as very few crops on west coast

 

U may be correct reguarding the law if u take it exactly by the letter (u may not be too) but really dinae think ur helping shooting much with this thread

 

I'll correct you there. He said that you can shoot them in that situation IF you have permission to carry out crop protection for that field of crops.

[fenboy]

 

Unfortunately the only people it will educate are the people looking to do us harm, bottom line, you put yourself and BEING RIGHT AT ALL COSTS before the greater good, you have dug a hole & are now unwilling (or unable because of pride) to admit you went down the wrong path, good luck to you i'm sure will answer because you undoubtedly like to have the last word, so ill take my own advice and make this my last word.

 

but lastly thanks for being able to have this difference of opinion in a sensible fashion.

 

kennym

Sorry but you talk tosh .

I am sure we can agree that 99.9% of us shoot pigeon for the sport , we use the GL to allow us to do that , in effect the GL is our armour safe gaurding our sport .

 

Its no good hiding behind the GL thinking its armour only to find in fact its silk when the anti's come charging at you with their swords drawn .

To be able to use the GL as defence you need to understand it simples .

 

I think this thread reflects more on people not wanting to be wrong than me wanting to be proved right.

[Scully]

I think if there were anyone studying this forum who wished us bad intent it would have happened long before now.

[bostonmick]

I believe that the op was right and entitled to post his response regarding the general licence. Also I would ask how many pigeon shooters have actually read the licence..My guess is that most have spent more time reading the instructions on how to assemble their pigeon magnet.there are a lot of people who know very little about the countryside some don't know what the crop is they are shooting over and even some who can't recognise different birds.The general licence is freely available for all to view so posting it on here is not going to give the anti's any ammunition that is not already at their disposal. The future of our sport is under constant scrutiny so don't give any cause through ignorance or complacency to get any further tightening of the ownership of sporting guns.

Edited July 28, 2015 by bostonmick