Variation for Roe...which calibre?

[Vince Green]

.243s can be a bit fussy about the heavier bullets so always start your learning process with the lighter bullets and work up. Oh and remember to keep all the cases, just buy a few rounds of each make and bullet weight to start with and keep a notebook.

Don't do what my mate did and bought about a hundred rounds of (I think it was Sako) because ammo was in short supply at the time so he thought he would stock up. His rifle hated it with a vengence..

Edited August 14, 2015 by Vince Green

[kyska]

Join the club but preferred my l96, I'd happily use a 22 cf on roe but the law of the land etc.

 

But then that's a war crime.

Not my point, a .223 with expanding ammo is sufficient for relevant deer.

[old man]

A .308, then when/if the fallow move in you are all ready to go?

[coldweld]

 

I know...I'm ex-infantry

 

I can tell you that 5.56 is lethal out to 300m though. Not as lethal perhaps as the 7.62

 

 

How can something that is Lethal be less lethal that a more lethal projectile ?

 

Yes the .243 was designed as a varmint round, 5.56-45 was developed from the .222 for the m16 to meet energy and penetration figures

 

 

 

[Paul223]

If you can find factory ammo loaded with the 95 grain nosler ballistic tip it's the best for both purposes in one bullet

Not too slow expanding on fox and not too fast on roe

Ideally two different rounds but that's not so practical as a none reloader looking at ammo costs

Like others have said a bullet only represents a tiny fraction of the carcass price. Just don't get carried away practicimg

The 95 grain nosler ballistic tip (a game bullet rather than the lighter varmint bullets) is perfect for the job on roe ( it's what I use) but sometimes doesn't open fast enough for my liking on fox, much prefer a varmint bullet, not that I'd pass up the opportunity whilst stalking

[Savhmr]

Ok so there's mixed opinions on rounds but a general consensus on the .243 being the most suitable calibre. I had thought if going the .243 route (or any other) that I'd start with perhaps just one box of ammo per bullet type until I find ammo that suite the particular rifle I may end up with. Any consensus on best bullet weight to start with bearing in mind species are likely to include charlie, Muntjac and Roe at distances likely to vary between 60 and 150 yds?

Edited August 14, 2015 by Savhmr

[Savhmr]

How can something that is Lethal be less lethal that a more lethal projectile ?

Yes the .243 was designed as a varmint round, 5.56-45 was developed from the .222 for the m16 to meet energy and penetration figures

 

I mean that the 5.56 despite being a potentially lethal round (despite the opinions on it being designed to maim and injure) that it still gives way to the ultimate knock down energy of NATO's 7.62 which is less likely to injure and far more likely to kill stone dead. The 5.56 will tumble readily as it is an unstable round making it very unpredictable in terms of survivability if hit with one.

 

Irrespective of what the .243 was originally designed for in the States, it seems to tick the Home Office guidelines for just about any game species in the UK depending on round selected. This is what appeals. It does seem to be a decent all round choice.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Savhmr

[kyska]

 

I mean that the 5.56 despite being a potentially lethal round (despite the opinions on it being designed to maim and injure)

 

The 5.56 will tumble readily as it is an unstable round making it very unpredictable in terms of survivability if hit with one.

.

Absolute tosh.

 

I have scores of fox and deer that have not agreed with your 'tumbling' and not much to say about it.

 

What's unstable about a .223?

Edited August 14, 2015 by kyska

[Savhmr]

With respect, it's not tosh at all and it doesn't relate to the (soft nosed) ammo which you use for hunting which isn't the same as the standard NATO round. We were taught very specifically about the first NATO rounds supplied with the SA80 as being rounds designed to tumble. Don't distract yourself with the 223 sideshow as its specifically deer calibre being discussed. If you want to learn more about the effects of the early NATO rounds in theatre, please PM me as it'll avoid thread drift.

[coldweld]

Savhmr

 

Back to thread

 

You seam to have fixed on .243 but as an owner of a .243 they are sometimes funny about bullet weight I have a Sauer 202 that won't group a bullet over 85 grn. Which is about the lightest bullet that is NOT a explosive varmint round, its fine on Muntjack as long as I don't hit a large bone.

I'm not saying it won't kill it but it can waste a lot of meat due to cavitation.

I seam to get less meat damage with a 129gn 6.5 bullet

[Lloyd90]

Recently started reloading with a Lee classic loader

 

87grain HPBT shooting well so far, went out on my land the other night , saw two fallow but both does so watched their white tails go off into the forest

[al4x]

If you can find anything around the 85 grain mark with a soft point then it's a good starting point. I reload Sierra soft points and can safely say they are a good multi purpose bullet. Very good on Charlie while also not being too destructive on deer. Certainly drop muntjac roe and fallow well

[Lloyd90]

If you can find anything around the 85 grain mark with a soft point then it's a good starting point. I reload Sierra soft points and can safely say they are a good multi purpose bullet. Very good on Charlie while also not being too destructive on deer. Certainly drop muntjac roe and fallow well

Hornady do 87gr HPBT and SP's. Not sure what's available in factory ammo tho.

[Savhmr]

Savhmr

 

Back to thread

 

You seam to have fixed on .243 but as an owner of a .243 they are sometimes funny about bullet weight I have a Sauer 202 that won't group a bullet over 85 grn. Which is about the lightest bullet that is NOT a explosive varmint round, its fine on Muntjack as long as I don't hit a large bone.

I'm not saying it won't kill it but it can waste a lot of meat due to cavitation.

I seam to get less meat damage with a 129gn 6.5 bullet

 

 

I'm still open to ideas but the consensus seemed up until now that .243 would be the ideal calibre. I am more than happy to reconsider should anyone with experience with say muntjac or Roe suggest the perhaps a heavier bullet in a larger calibre or with .243 will be a good choice for minimising meat damage and remain accurate. I guess that there is bound to be variation with ammo used in different rifles due to barrel differences. 6.5 x 55 or .308 are still on the cards but I wanted to avoid excessive ammo cost if possible. I'm aware there are relatively cheap rounds widely available for the .243 which was part of the draw but as a tool, it must be fit for purpose otherwise it's money wasted.

If you can find anything around the 85 grain mark with a soft point then it's a good starting point. I reload Sierra soft points and can safely say they are a good multi purpose bullet. Very good on Charlie while also not being too destructive on deer. Certainly drop muntjac roe and fallow well

 

 

Good to hear. Presumably we're talking .243 ?

[Paul223]

 

 

I'm still open to ideas but the consensus seemed up until now that .243 would be the ideal calibre. I am more than happy to reconsider should anyone with experience with say muntjac or Roe suggest the perhaps a heavier bullet in a larger calibre or with .243 will be a good choice for minimising meat damage and remain accurate. I guess that there is bound to be variation with ammo used in different rifles due to barrel differences. 6.5 x 55 or .308 are still on the cards but I wanted to avoid excessive ammo cost if possible. I'm aware there are relatively cheap rounds widely available for the .243 which was part of the draw but as a tool, it must be fit for purpose otherwise it's money wasted.

 

 

 

Good to hear. Presumably we're talking .243 ?

My .243 handles everything from 55's through to 100, it's an older tikka M55 so nowt special

 

Doesn't like 90 grain ppu mind

[CharlieT]

As my .222 works as well as my .243 or Sweed on fox, muntjac and Roe it matters little what you choose.

 

Remember Muntjac and Roe are both small, thin skinned deer so there is little point in going for a larger caliber, particularly if fox will be your main quarry where a flat shooting, point and shoot rifle is a bonus.

 

As has been said, something like a 243 with a 80-95 gr hunting bullet would fit the bill nicely. Mine likes Sako 90gr gameheads at around £25 a box. Hornady 75gr SST look interesting as an all rounder, I must try a box.

[Savhmr]

I'm sure all the calibres you've stated would do the job but only one is legal in England for Roe, the .243. If I limited myself to munties and fox, then I'd probably be happy with a .223. The heavier the bullet the better for hunting and gicen the choice of a smaller calibre and higher velocity or heavier bullet with a slightly lower velocity, I'd take the latter every day of the week.

[coldweld]

Its mainly about Bullets NOT caliber :-

For example my 6.5 shoots 100 to 129gn with about an 1" variation. But the difference on Fallow is Amazing ! the 100gn have killed every Fallow i have connected with, BUT due to the light jacket.

All have fragmented with a third of the bullet resting under the skin opposite the 1" wide entry wound, with lots of cavitation bubbles in the body.

 

129gn has a small entry wound and a 3/4" exit wound, I have NEVER had a retained bullet in 129gn. Cavitation bubbles are hardly present and for me an exit to leave a good blood trail is a trait I like ( just incase)

[al4x]

On that note I'm yet to have a soft point in 243 not exit a roe, fallow not always but they never seem to go far and the dog doesn't need much to go on

[neutron619]

Bullet weight and construction are more important than calibre. Shot placement is more important than both of the above. Like Savhmr, I'm also a proponent of the slow / heavy school of thought, at least where deer are concerned.

 

For fox, use a light-for-calibre rapidly expanding ballistic tipped bullet (V-Max or similar) and drive it fast.

 

For muntjac, use any standard soft point (i.e. not ballistic tipped) and keep the bullet heavy-for-calibre and the velocity under 3000fps.

 

If you only want to run one round through the gun, use the deer load for fox, but not vice versa. Blowing the legs off deer but not killing them is generally distressing for all concerned. V-maxes are not deer bullets, no matter how much the cowboys who head-shoot everything say otherwise.

 

Any UK legal calibre will do the job for everything you want. Personally I find a 150gr / 180gr / 220gr SP or RNSP from a .308 doesn't get argued with very much, but I shoot more deer than fox and ultimately, it comes down to aesthetics. If every round in every calibre will be within a couple of inches of each other at all normal shooting distances, you just have to choose the one that you think is sexy and be prepared to say "I don't care" when some calibre monkey (like myself) comes along and says "you should have bought X - it's so much cooler..."

 

Good luck.

Edited August 15, 2015 by neutron619

[Paul223]

This is what I was saying earlier, the price of the bullet should not matter, also don't label all poly tipped bullets as super fast expanding, Nosler's ballistic tip in the game (rather than varmint) is absolutely fantastic in terms of terminal performance on deer, expands and holds together very well.

 

I agree a varmint bullet whether poly tip, soft point or hollow point are not suitable.

[neutron619]

This is what I was saying earlier, the price of the bullet should not matter, also don't label all poly tipped bullets as super fast expanding, Nosler's ballistic tip in the game (rather than varmint) is absolutely fantastic in terms of terminal performance on deer, expands and holds together very well.

 

I agree a varmint bullet whether poly tip, soft point or hollow point are not suitable.

 

Yup - fair point. Barnes TSX / TTSX also retain weight very well, as do (I'm told) Hornady's GMX and they all have tips / plugs. Just said it like that as people round my way tend to call anything rapidly expanding "ballistic tips" regardless of the actual construction, so I assumed it was just the colloquial term. I've no argument that some tipped bullets are "well" constructed and stay together perfectly well. The number of foxes I shoot (i.e. very, very few) I can get away with using nothing but plain soft points (which perhaps reinforces my prejudice), but that may not be the best approach for the OP.

Edited August 15, 2015 by neutron619

[Beretta28g]

Get a 6.5 x 55 and some 140 gn soft points you won't need anything else.

Hornady I have found to be good factory stuff and cheap at £22/20

Edited August 15, 2015 by Beretta28g

[Savhmr]

Well thanks folks for all your valuable feedback. I had a meeting with the landowner yesterday and whilst he clearly supports the variation for a larger calibre for deer, his wife is less keen to see any deer shot. I walk the land a lot and it is obvious that there is a glut of Roe but I do have to respect their wishes, so for now, it looks like unless I find another permission, the variation may not be worth applying for. Shame, as I like Venison too!

[activeviii]

i was going to say 6.5 every time and your more than welcome to try one. just sold the 243 that i had for foxing else it would have given you a good comparison as the 308 is here as well.