Electronic banking error

[Mungler]

There was a topic on here a while ago concerning someone's relative who had money arrive unexpectedly into their account by electronic transfer - I wondered how that ended up.

 

Also does anyone else on here have any direct experience of recovering an accidental electronic bank payment made and then getting it back?

 

I'm in the middle of a 'little issue' and getting the payment back is looking like a struggle. The recipient account (unknown to me) is with the Co-op and I can't make direct contact with the Co-op (apparently) and I have to go through my bank.

 

It's been over a week - the only info I have is that it has landed in a Co-op account and the Co-op are looking into it.

 

It strikes me that this must go on all the time and yet there doesn't appear to be an agreed procedure / protocol between banks or a timetable for redress.

.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mungler

[Gordon R]

I normally e-mail the CEO, but a bit of research suggests that any e-mails are bounced back or ignored.

[old man]

Worth a look here?

 

http://www.blackenterprise.com/money/how-to-correct-bank-error-5-step/

[AVB]

I would suggest making a complaint. Banks are well versed in dealing with them and there is a timetable that they have to adhere to regarding the resolution.

 

Payments made to the wrong counterparty is a difficult one though. The sender would have had to get the details wrong In a number of places. It's no different to putting the wrong address on an envelope and then complaining when the post office deliver it to the address on the envelope.

[eddoakley]

I had someone at the bank count some cash wrong a year or so ago. I asked her to check and she counted to the same amount again. I knew how much there was.

She credited my account with £5000 more than I gave her.

24 hours later I had 17 missed calls from various bank employees each sounding more panicked than the last.

I just called in and signed a slip to say they could take it back. Had a little bit of fun listening to the calls but there was no way I would have ever benefited by trying to keep it.

 

Ed

[Zenduri]

A friend of mine did a bank transfer to his new landladies account but botched the account number up and ended up overwriting 2 digits in the account number with another 2. The money was sent to a third parties account in error and he contacted his bank to try and get the money back.

 

The process was that his bank contacted the receiving bank to advise of the incorrect payment, the receiving bank then contacted their customer who had received the payment to ask if they would allow them to send the money back to my mates account. They cant forceably claim it back it has to be agreed to be sent back by the receiving party. If the person who received the money in error says no or says no and spends it then the only thing my mate could do is go to the small claims court and with the help of them raise a claim against the person who received the money and get a CCJ to try and claim it back.

 

It appears the receiving person doesnt have to send the money back and its not a criminal matter its a civil one, the bank which received the money doesnt have to speak to the sender but it has to act as a go between between the senders bank and the recipient.

 

Long and short of it is if you make a mistake sending money its down to how kind and honest the person who received it is. Fortunately for my friend they agreed for the money to be sent back so he got his £700 back

[Bobba]

I've often wondered about this topic and whether the recipient of the money is committing the crime of theft by finding. i.e. they receive the money, know it's not for them and do nothing about it. Perhaps there's a lawyer amongst the PW members who can advise?

 

Because, if, potentially that is what it is then is there not a case for getting the polce involved and the bank of the recipient asked by the police to reveal to them the identity of the recipient. If the bank refuses, isn't that withholding evidence likely to lead to the succesful prosecution of a crime.

 

Just a thought!

[Zenduri]

Nope its purely a civil matter, i did a bit of reading and research on this as did my friend when he told me about his mistake. In theory whats to stop the recipient from saying they sold you something privately and this was the payment. it's a hard one to sort out and generally speaking it will end up in the sender taking the receipient to the small claim court and applying for a CCJ if the recipient says no to returning the money

[Chris Bb]

This is the one thing that worries me about electronic banking. With only a sort code and one account number to enter it's far too easy to get one wrong. Also, there's no receipt to let you know where your money's gone or that it has been received, HMRC please take note.

[AVB]

This is the one thing that worries me about electronic banking. With only a sort code and one account number to enter it's far too easy to get one wrong. Also, there's no receipt to let you know where your money's gone or that it has been received, HMRC please take note.

 

You can't just enter random numbers though. It needs to be a valid sort code and a valid account number (which has a checksum on it). Also when creating a payment to a recipient for the first time most Banks force an extra validation. With HSBC you need to generate a pin number on your token and then enter this pin against the last four digits of the account number. It's really not that hard to get it right.

[rodp]

So, would the recipient be within his rights, as it's a civil case, to instruct his bank to not release his identity? Then the sender couldn't take him to court ?

[Zenduri]

So, would the recipient be within his rights, as it's a civil case, to instruct his bank to not release his identity? Then the sender couldn't take him to court ?

No

 

When the sender applies to the SMC for a CCJ they should able to obtain the recipients info from the bank. Usually before it goes to this stage it will have gone to the Ombudsman who should furnish all parties with the relevant information.

[rodp]

No

 

When the sender applies to the SMC for a CCJ they should able to obtain the recipients info from the bank. Usually before it goes to this stage it will have gone to the Ombudsman who should furnish all parties with the relevant information.

Just wondered, never been lucky enough myself to receive anything I haven't worked for

[Mungler]

The error occurred when 1 digit was omitted from the account entry details and my bank's system 'helpfully' automatically added a zero at the front (to turn a defective 7 digit account number into a viable 8 digit recipient account number).

The payment was made on 27th November.

Does anyone here have a mate who works in the Co-op and who can help? Obviously because of account security and data protection we have absolutely ***** information out of the co-op and the next step is to get the Court involved and seek a Court Order

Bizarrely this must go on all the time but it's like we're inventing the wheel all over and there's no information

Edited December 7, 2015 by shaun4860

[GingerCat]

It goes on all the time. You'll get the monies back but it takes a while. They can't keep it and it can be a criminal matter not just civil. The bank will be liable for this however if they have added a digit to "make it work"so to speak when the transaction should have been rejected amd will just recall the funds when they check it out.

[Rupert]

are you with Lloyds? Mungler?

 

 

www.money.co.uk/guides/can-you-keep-money-accidentally-paid-into-your-bank-acount.htm

Edited December 7, 2015 by Rupert

[Billy.]

I once had a couple of hundred land into my account. I didn't think anything of it and cheekily moved it to a savings account.

 

The phone rang about two hours later from someone at Lloyds (My bank) and the person said a member of staff got a digit wrong and accidentally sent me the money. Sheepishly I admitted that I'd moved it to savings for 'safe keeping'. They saw the funny side and informed me that the funds would be removed.

 

That was a Lloyds-Loyds transfer. So a matter of hours to track & trace. On the differing bank issue, my mum had a problem between an international, Wells Fargo - Lloyds transfer error and apparently that was a complete nightmare to get her money after the employee got a digit wrong. (couple of weeks IIRC)

Edited December 7, 2015 by Billy.

[AVB]

There is a difference between the bank making a mistake and transferring money to the wrong account. In which case you would expect quick recovery. However when the have followed your instructions, and with Internet banking it is your instructions, then recovery will be protracted for obvious reasons.

[Gordon R]

There is a difference between sending funds to the wrong account and the banking system inserting another number - thereby sending to the wrong account - as opposed to rejecting the transfer, due to a missing digit.

 

I think I would be getting into the ribs of the Co-op and the bank.

[Davyo]

 

You can't just enter random numbers though. It needs to be a valid sort code and a valid account number (which has a checksum on it). Also when creating a payment to a recipient for the first time most Banks force an extra validation. With HSBC you need to generate a pin number on your token and then enter this pin against the last four digits of the account number. It's really not that hard to get it right.

What he said,with my bank I can not just send monies to a new recipient without getting a PIN number and verifying it.Plus it's not just a sort code and an account number you have to put a recipients name.

[Bobba]

Nope its purely a civil matter, i did a bit of reading and research on this as did my friend when he told me about his mistake. In theory whats to stop the recipient from saying they sold you something privately and this was the payment. it's a hard one to sort out and generally speaking it will end up in the sender taking the receipient to the small claim court and applying for a CCJ if the recipient says no to returning the money

This does not help explain why it is not a criminal matter. Hypothetical tales of fictitious sales are easily exposed. If you read up on theft by finding then the circumstances fit the bill. So what in your view are the criteria that determines it as a civil and not a criminal offence? Not being provocative just wishing clarification. Thanks.

[GingerCat]

From money.co.uk which may be worth a read

 

 

Keeping any money wrongly credited to your account could lead to you being charged with 'Retaining wrongful credit'. The 1968 Theft act defines this as: "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it".

 

It goes on to say that: "A person is guilty of an offence if:

 

1.

 

a wrongful credit has been made to an account kept by him or in respect of which he has any right or interest;

 

2.

 

he knows or believes that the credit is wrongful; and he dishonestly fails to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled."

[wascal]

instead of my wages I once had my account number paid into my account - £40 million , needless to say it was grabbed back quickly

[m3vert]

I have been stupid enough to make a similar mistake. I had previously paid money into my then girlfriends credit card via my electronic banking, this was subsequently saved in my online banking (presumably to make it easier to pay again in the future). Well over a year after splitting up with her I attempted to make a payment for a good few quid to my own card, but by mistake highlighted the wrong card number! Yes you guessed it, her bloody card :-( Spoke to the bank and they correctly stated it was my mistake and there was nothing they could or would do. It resulted in me having to call her and basically ask very kindly for her to authorize for the money to be returned, which after allowing me to squirm, she eventually did!! Lesson learned, her details were deleted pretty dam quickly after that!

 

As far as I know had she said no, I would have had a serious fight to get it back. She could have claimed I was paying it in to her account to clear some debt I had with her, and it would most likely have been me who had to prove otherwise!

 

Good luck getting your cash back Mungler!

Edited December 8, 2015 by m3vert

[Bobba]

From money.co.uk which may be worth a read

Keeping any money wrongly credited to your account could lead to you being charged with 'Retaining wrongful credit'. The 1968 Theft act defines this as: "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it".

It goes on to say that: "A person is guilty of an offence if:

1.

a wrongful credit has been made to an account kept by him or in respect of which he has any right or interest;

2.

he knows or believes that the credit is wrongful; and he dishonestly fails to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled."

Thank you. Another view that it could result in criminal action rather than civil action.