Live Pigeon Shooting

[Feltwad]

The Sport

 

Live pigeon shooting was the forerunner of clay pigeon shooting as we know today. No one can truly say when the sport shooting from traps first began, if old adverts in the local press are correct it was about 1820. By 1850 the sport was well established in England with clubs operating in all parts of the UK. With the advanced development of the sport a set of rules were drawn up which totalled 24 in all by the Hurlington Gun Club which became the official rules for the sport. In May 1898 these were revised to accommodate the breech loader and a further 4 rules were added in 1901.

 

The Gun

 

The guns used in the early days were all muzzle loaders, mostly percussion but some were made in tube lock. They were made in all big bore sizes 4, 6, 7, 8, 10 and 12 and all were single barrelled. These guns are easily identified because there is no provision for a ramrod. All the well known makers of the day made muzzle loading pigeon guns which carried on into the breech loading period mostly because the old pigeon shots would not change to breech loader.

 

The first breech loaders were pin fire followed by the centre fire which were mostly double barrelled hammer guns under lever and chambered for 2.3/4 inch cartridges, 32 inch barrels and true cylinder. The locks were either back action or bar lock. With full and half cock hammers you can always identify these guns because they are so straight when shouldered and only allow the shooter eye to focus on the muzzle of the barrel, the reason for this was to make them shoot high allowing for the pigeon rising from the trap. By 1870 most breech loaders were choke bored and bore regulated for pigeon shooting. By 1900 the box lock was a well established pigeon gun. Well known gun makers of the day made these guns such as W. W. Greener with his Blue Rock, Gogswell and Harrison with the Grand Prix Gun and W. R. Pape with his box lock pigeon gun know as the Arcott.

 

The Load

 

In the early days muzzle loaders used large loads of black powder, the big 4 and 6 bores varied their loads from 6 drams of black powder to 2 or 3 oz of shot, with the introduction of the rules this was altered in Rule 24 as follows:

 

Rule 24

 

Charge of powder is limited to 4 drams.

Chilled shot and sawdust powder may be used.

The weight of the gun is not to exceed 7lb 8oz.

Size of shot restricted to 5, 6, 7 and 8.

Charge of shot limited to 1.1/4oz.

 

To make sure rule 24 was observed rule 25 was introduced

Rule 25

 

All muzzle loaders shall be loaded only from the club bowels.

 

The early breech loaders using black powder cartridges had no advantage over the muzzle loaders, in fact reports show that they were killing more birds, but when the powder for the breech loader changed to nitro powder by such names as Smokeless Diamond and Schultze there was a big improvement in the kills with 99 out of 100 becoming a regular occurrence.

 

The Bird

 

These were a pigeon called the Blue Rock. Tthey were caught in the wild or specially bred by farmers in properly constructed dove cotes or the roof space of old granaries or farm buildings, which can still be seen today with the entrance holes in the apex of the roof. Towards the end of the sport these birds were cross bred with the homing pigeon. All clubs had a boundary perimeter fence of 60 to 80 yards if the bird fell outside of this fence it was classed as no bird.

 

The Shooting Day

 

The well established clubs employed a meat purveyor to supply the club with birds, only healthy birds were used they and they had not be used to being handled. Ill treating or mutilation was not permitted.

 

Most of these shoots could last from 1 to 3 days with a lot of betting done on the side; a wager could amount from a few pounds for the working man to £100 plus for the aristocracy. Prizes were also won which depending on the size of the shoot could be first prize to the top gun of a pig or a brand new gun donated by some well known gun maker.

 

Conclusion

 

Today live pigeon shooting from traps is history in this country; it became illegal in 1921 with the introduction of the (Captive Birds Shooting Prohibition Act). Live pigeon did create a specially made gun for the sport from the percussion through to the side by side Hammerless shotgun, some which we still see today, making them a vital part of our gun heritage, but most of the hammer live pigeon guns by provincial gun makers have disappeared in the thousands, the 1988-89 Firearms Act was the main cause in recent years when most went to the furnace.

 

I personally feel that it was the advance development of the pigeon gun and cartridge that made the sport non-sporting and just plain slaughter.

 

Feltwad

The pigeon trap

 

The Score Board

Muzzle loading Pigeon Guns

Muzle loading Pigeon Guns from 4 bore to 12 bore

Edited January 17, 2016 by Feltwad

[wisdom]

Thanks for sharing this.i knew some of it but am now further enlightened.Didnt know that bigger bore guns were used though.Thanks again.

[Scully]

A mate in our syndicate has a couple of 'live' pigeon guns, although they're the more conventional 12 bore boxlocks common on driven days. He uses them to good effect.

He has some very nice guns, including a WC Scott box lock built in 1982 and which until yesterday hadn't fired a shot in anger; it has now.

[B25Modelman]

Superb guns. I bet that 4 bore takes some holding.

Edited January 17, 2016 by B25Modelman

[aga man]

Some fine guns and an interesting read, but thank god this 'sport' is now history.

[Old farrier]

Hi very interesting and lovely guns all stuff that formed the trap (Dtl) of today

Good history

Still done in some parts of Europe

Here's a live pigeon arena

And the birds they shoot

Still big gambelijng and spectator sport

Edited January 17, 2016 by Old farrier

[Scully]

Still done in some parts of the USA also I think.

[JohnfromUK]

Many of the Spanish Makers (AyA, Ignacio Ugartechea) used live pigeon shooting to show of their products. Augustin Aranzabel (one of the 'A's in AyA) was a noted live pigeon shot. This would have been as recently as the 1960s/70s I think.

 

Similarly, many of the great English makers were noted pigeon shots (E.J. Churchill, Hoseph Lang, Harris Holland etc) when it was legal here.

[CharlieT]

Some fine guns and an interesting read, but thank god this 'sport' is now history.

 

I suspect our great grandchildren will be saying the same thing about pheasant shooting in 75 years time.

[Hamster]

Still done in some parts of the USA also I think.

 

It is indeed :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKZWfpjqeKA

Even allowing for the emotive anti slant of the commentary it is an abhorrent practice and banned in most of Europe. You can see plenty of clips on Youtube and none make for good viewing. It is nothing like game shooting, our style pigeon shooting or field sports in general.

 

ps. Even the so called legal matches organised stateside are routinely advertised only by word of mouth or by those in the know, that's how proud they are.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Hamster

[Scully]

 

It is indeed :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKZWfpjqeKA

Even allowing for the emotive anti slant of the commentary it is an abhorrent practice and banned in most of Europe. You can see plenty of clips on Youtube and none make for good viewing. It is nothing like game shooting, our style pigeon shooting or field sports in general.

 

ps. Even the so called legal matches organised stateside are routinely advertised only by word of mouth or by those in the know, that's how proud they are.

 

I'm not really in any position to judge; I kill things for my own pleasure.

[Hamster]

 

I'm not really in any position to judge; I kill things for my own pleasure.

 

They're using live birds as targets to bet money on, big difference. It is many decades since the practice was outlawed here and it is outlawed in most of the USA, most people can see the difference.

[Old farrier]

 

I'm not really in any position to judge; I kill things for my own pleasure.

Very honest answer 😋

 

It's very imotive subject

And I dare say in the European countries that it is still legal it's a huge part of the economy

Not for me to judge

 

Wonder if any of the top champion uk shots will participate for practice (or the 250000 ) prize money 😉😗

Just a thought

Of

[FalconFN]

 

I'm not really in any position to judge; I kill things for my own pleasure.

I assume and hope that the act of killing isn't solely where you get your pleasure, otherwise you'd not bother with the guns and just get a hammer and an account at Pets at Home.

[Feltwad]

The lay out for the original pigeon shooting match was totally different than what you see today in other countrys where it is still allowed {See Images}

Feltwad

A print of the layout for the breech loading period

 

 

Old print of a shooting layout of the percussion period

Edited January 17, 2016 by Feltwad

[dipper]

Very honest answer

It's very imotive subject

And I dare say in the European countries that it is still legal it's a huge part of the economy

Not for me to judge

Wonder if any of the top champion uk shots will participate for practice (or the 250000 ) prize money

Just a thought

Of

When George digweed won a big shoot in America a few years ago live pigeons were part of the shoot.Dipper.

[Scully]

 

They're using live birds as targets to bet money on, big difference. It is many decades since the practice was outlawed here and it is outlawed in most of the USA, most people can see the difference.

Take away the gambling aspect and there's very little difference. Many people pay huge amounts of money to shoot living creatures for nothing more than their own pleasure. Whether I pay to do it or pay to enter a competition for the chance to win money makes no difference at all to the outcome, which is the shooting of live creatures for entertainment.

If I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't be doing it, and neither would you. Some people maybe need to ask themselves some questions and answer them honestly.

 

 

I assume and hope that the act of killing isn't solely where you get your pleasure, otherwise you'd not bother with the guns and just get a hammer and an account at Pets at Home.

I have no idea what Pets at Home is, but if I was able to use a hammer I doubt it would be much of a challenge.

I'm nowhere near the same league as Dave Carrie but I cheer and laugh just as much as he does when I pull off one of those really impressively satisfying shots; the fact I've just killed something in doing so doesn't even enter my head.

I can't deny recognising a fleeting tinge of peripheral regret that I've just killed such a magnificent bird as a cock pheasant on bending down to pick it up, which is elevated to guilt when I pick up something as lowly as a common jackdaw to discover it is still alive and totally defenceless, but it's obvious I don't regret it to the extent I don't shoot at the next one to present itself.

It's a frustratingly difficult topic, with an ever elusive satisfactory explanation, but at the end of the day, when all other explanations have been exhausted, it is the only explanation left.

 

Wonder if any of the top champion uk shots will participate for practice (or the 250000 ) prize money

 

I would if I felt I was good enough. 250,000 is a lot even in Euros or dollars.

When George digweed won a big shoot in America a few years ago live pigeons were part of the shoot.Dipper.

Oooh.....now that's interesting.

[CharlieT]

Take away the gambling aspect and there's very little difference. Many people pay huge amounts of money to shoot living creatures for nothing more than their own pleasure. Whether I pay to do it or pay to enter a competition for the chance to win money makes no difference at all to the outcome, which is the shooting of live creatures for entertainment.

If I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't be doing it, and neither would you. Some people maybe need to ask themselves some questions and answer them honestly.

 

 

 

Good ost Scully.

 

Not a lot of difference when we hold a sweepstake when pheasant shooting or when a fellow gun bets me tenner I can't hit a particularly difficult bird.

[OJW]

I have no idea what Pets at Home is, but if I was able to use a hammer I doubt it would be much of a challenge.

I'm nowhere near the same league as Dave Carrie but I cheer and laugh just as much as he does when I pull off one of those really impressively satisfying shots; the fact I've just killed something in doing so doesn't even enter my head.

I can't deny recognising a fleeting tinge of peripheral regret that I've just killed such a magnificent bird as a cock pheasant on bending down to pick it up, which is elevated to guilt when I pick up something as lowly as a common jackdaw to discover it is still alive and totally defenceless, but it's obvious I don't regret it to the extent I don't shoot at the next one to present itself.

It's a frustratingly difficult topic, with an ever elusive satisfactory explanation, but at the end of the day, when all other explanations have been exhausted, it is the only explanation left.

 

 

 

That was a very interesting post, thanks for sharing your thoughts on that emotive subject. It's very strange isn't it.

[Hamster]

Pheasants are hand reared, tended and raised by due reverence, their daily lives attended to by controlling predators, being fed, sheltered and protected daily and yes ultimately killed over guns but their lives are longer and infinitely more natural and interesting than say battery chickens raised for human consumption.

 

Even in death they are shown due respect and dignity being paired and beautifully presented on game carts, hung to cool in larders then sold to dealers in order to enter the food chain.

 

Pigeon are caught and kept in appalling conditions, sometimes travelling hundreds of miles in big crates purely for the purpose of providing moving targets from static positions. The matches can take place from lurid car parks resembling nothing like the typical wonders of nature that need to be created in order to raise and shoot pheasants in.

 

In death they are treated terribly, tossed atop one another in bins, many still alive, collected by kids who kick them in order to prevent them from crawling away. I despair if anyone cannot see the differences.

[Old farrier]

Pheasants are hand reared, tended and raised by due reverence, their daily lives attended to by controlling predators, being fed, sheltered and protected daily and yes ultimately killed over guns but their lives are longer and infinitely more natural and interesting than say battery chickens raised for human consumption.

 

Even in death they are shown due respect and dignity being paired and beautifully presented on game carts, hung to cool in larders then sold to dealers in order to enter the food chain.

 

Pigeon are caught and kept in appalling conditions, sometimes travelling hundreds of miles in big crates purely for the purpose of providing moving targets from static positions. The matches can take place from lurid car parks resembling nothing like the typical wonders of nature that need to be created in order to raise and shoot pheasants in.

 

In death they are treated terribly, tossed atop one another in bins, many still alive, collected by kids who kick them in order to prevent them from crawling away. I despair if anyone cannot see the differences.

Which live pigeon shooting competition did you go to ?

[Hamster]

Which live pigeon shooting competition did you go to ?

 

I wouldn't out of principal, go on Youtube and watch a few, most are actually taken by the participants themselves. I've never fallen off a cliff either but I know it hurts as the saying goes.

[Old farrier]

 

I wouldn't out of principal, go on Youtube and watch a few, most are actually taken by the participants themselves. I've never fallen off a cliff either but I know it hurts as the saying goes.

😟

Fair enough

Although not having watched it on utube

I have been ....(curiosity is a strange thing)

And must say it wasn't my thing however I found it not as you describe it from u tube but highly regulated with very strict rules and a fair amount of ceremony

And the pigeon were reared in lofts and flown to make them fit birds

As said not my chosen sport but neither is bull fighting 😋

Just my take on it

All the best

Of

[12gauge82]

Take away the gambling aspect and there's very little difference. Many people pay huge amounts of money to shoot living creatures for nothing more than their own pleasure. Whether I pay to do it or pay to enter a competition for the chance to win money makes no difference at all to the outcome, which is the shooting of live creatures for entertainment.

If I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't be doing it, and neither would you. Some people maybe need to ask themselves some questions and answer them honestly.

 

 

I have no idea what Pets at Home is, but if I was able to use a hammer I doubt it would be much of a challenge.

I'm nowhere near the same league as Dave Carrie but I cheer and laugh just as much as he does when I pull off one of those really impressively satisfying shots; the fact I've just killed something in doing so doesn't even enter my head.

I can't deny recognising a fleeting tinge of peripheral regret that I've just killed such a magnificent bird as a cock pheasant on bending down to pick it up, which is elevated to guilt when I pick up something as lowly as a common jackdaw to discover it is still alive and totally defenceless, but it's obvious I don't regret it to the extent I don't shoot at the next one to present itself.

It's a frustratingly difficult topic, with an ever elusive satisfactory explanation, but at the end of the day, when all other explanations have been exhausted, it is the only explanation left.

 

I would if I felt I was good enough. 250,000 is a lot even in Euros or dollars.

 

Oooh.....now that's interesting.

Well put and very honest, my view is that anyone who disagrees with this is lying to themselves.

[B25Modelman]

We are entering a world of masdebating now.