EU In or out

[hawkfanz]

lets hope people get off there butts and do the right thing,,it will be criminal if we are stuck with eu because lazy **** cant be bothered to vote.

[ditchman]

Heard an interesting comment today...............the remain part of the govt' want to stay in cause if they leave, the govt' will wake up and suddenly find out THEY have to run the country and there will be nobody else to blame !!

[Danger-Mouse]

Heard an interesting comment today...............the remain part of the govt' want to stay in cause if they leave, the govt' will wake up and suddenly find out THEY have to run the country and there will be nobody else to blame !!

 

Haha . . . amusing. Can`t really say I believe it, although . . . many a true word spoken in jest.

[Vince Green]

Heard an interesting comment today...............the remain part of the govt' want to stay in cause if they leave, the govt' will wake up and suddenly find out THEY have to run the country and there will be nobody else to blame !!

Well I have thought much the same but not quite for the same reason. A stay vote would mean nothing extra for them to do, business as usual, put their feet up and read the paper.

 

An exit vote would mean a massive workload and tons of hassle, headaches and problems to sort out for years to come

[UKPoacher]

Well I have thought much the same but not quite for the same reason. A stay vote would mean nothing extra for them to do, business as usual, put their feet up and read the paper.

 

An exit vote would mean a massive workload and tons of hassle, headaches and problems to sort out for years to come

 

The EU has also been a means of implementing unpopular legislation that member countrie's governments wouldn't want to have to answer to.

[karm2803]

we've got to leave or they will dump any legislation on us and say your country voted and gave us the mandate for this to go ahead

[Danger-Mouse]

I read this in a thread posted elsewhere about Brexit. Obviously it`s only an individual`s pov and not necessarily very representative but it`s still quite interesting . . .

 

"As a German I hope you guys vote for Brexit simply because that finally means an end to the constant anti-EU bitching by the British and more importantly an end to the massive slow down to European unification of military, police, fiscal and political powers desperately needed to deal with the many Europe wide problems and challenges. I believe many problems like TTIP screwing us over, immigration crisis and the huge amount of corruption in some parts of the EU can only be solved with a stronger Union. Additionally it's the only way to promote European interests on an equal power level with the US, Russia and China all of which can screw over any single EU member alone but not the EU as a whole."

 

So, fairly clear what this person`s vision of Europe is, one huge federal state. A lot of it scares the hell out of me. The only bit I find amusing is that he believes more central control and unification will cut down on corruption. Personally, should his vision come to fruition I can only see the corruption getting worse.

 

I saw another intriguing comment a couple of days ago. I can`t quote it because I don`t remember where it was but it went along these lines. Germany (and this may also apply to France), being a wealthy country, with a huge manufacturing capacity, that has the Euro as it`s currency, has a vested interest in allowing poorer southern/eastern european countries into the EU/Euro. This is because Germany can use it`s wealth/manufacturing advantage to secure higher profits through trade. If Germany still had the Deutschmark it would not be in such a good position because it would undoubtedly be a stronger currency than that of its trading partners and therefore trade would suffer.

 

Presuming that is an accurate assessment (and I`m no economist) then you have to ask where we stand with Sterling? Being as it`s still stronger than the Euro then our trade presumably suffers. Now, obviously even if we vote out that would still be the case. However if we`re out at least we won`t be funding the smaller EU nations. And as more and more countries join the cost to us will only become greater. I see us being forced to put more and more in and get less and less back.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Danger-Mouse

[12gauge82]

As we buy more than we sell, keeping a strong currency is a positive. Unlike Germany who export more than they import.

[TONY R]

OUT We should have never gone in in the first place.

[rjimmer]

we've got to leave or they will dump any legislation on us and say your country voted and gave us the mandate for this to go ahead

+1

[big bad lindz]

I read this in a thread posted elsewhere about Brexit. Obviously it`s only an individual`s pov and not necessarily very representative but it`s still quite interesting . . .

 

"As a German I hope you guys vote for Brexit simply because that finally means an end to the constant anti-EU bitching by the British and more importantly an end to the massive slow down to European unification of military, police, fiscal and political powers desperately needed to deal with the many Europe wide problems and challenges. I believe many problems like TTIP screwing us over, immigration crisis and the huge amount of corruption in some parts of the EU can only be solved with a stronger Union. Additionally it's the only way to promote European interests on an equal power level with the US, Russia and China all of which can screw over any single EU member alone but not the EU as a whole."

 

So, fairly clear what this person`s vision of Europe is, one huge federal state. A lot of it scares the hell out of me. The only bit I find amusing is that he believes more central control and unification will cut down on corruption. Personally, should his vision come to fruition I can only see the corruption getting worse.

 

 

Was it not a German who brought the whole of Europe and later the rest of the world into a dreadful conflict that sadly some people will never forget that are still alive today, could we be heading into a similar conflict ?? we will do it my way !!

We unfortunately, as individuals may not know enough about how the rest of the general public in Europe feel about Brexit and the whole thing about reforming the way the EU is managed. We are going to be bombarded with what the media and the government want to tell us no matter if you are an IN or OUT supporter. For some they will vote with their convictions others will be like sheep and just follow, that was very obvious during the Yes / NO Scottish referendum, I cant see this referendum being to different,

[UKPoacher]

Was it not a German who brought the whole of Europe and later the rest of the world into a dreadful conflict that sadly some people will never forget that are still alive today, could we be heading into a similar conflict ?? we will do it my way !!

We unfortunately, as individuals may not know enough about how the rest of the general public in Europe feel about Brexit and the whole thing about reforming the way the EU is managed. We are going to be bombarded with what the media and the government want to tell us no matter if you are an IN or OUT supporter. For some they will vote with their convictions others will be like sheep and just follow, that was very obvious during the Yes / NO Scottish referendum, I cant see this referendum being to different,

 

Yes. But this time they are aiming to dominate Europe using politicians, not soldiers.

[rjimmer]

 

If Germany still had the Deutschmark it would not be in such a good position because it would undoubtedly be a stronger currency than that of its trading partners and therefore trade would suffer.

 

 

The Euro has had the affect of allowing Germany to trade with an under-valued currency, just like China has got away with.

[UKPoacher]

Mervyn King has said that the Euro is doomed and that it has caused greater political harm than good over the years. He also believes that the UK can thrive outside the EU. But then again, he was only the head of the Bank of England. I'm sure that the Chancellor, George Osborne with his second class degree in History will disagree.

[Danger-Mouse]

 

We unfortunately, as individuals may not know enough about how the rest of the general public in Europe feel about Brexit and the whole thing about reforming the way the EU is managed. We are going to be bombarded with what the media and the government want to tell us no matter if you are an IN or OUT supporter. For some they will vote with their convictions others will be like sheep and just follow, that was very obvious during the Yes / NO Scottish referendum, I cant see this referendum being to different,

 

I`ve seen a fair number of comments from other europeans and the opinion of a Brexit is mixed.

 

The majority that want to see us leave either follow the line of my earlier quotation, ie that we are disrupting the possibility of closer union. Or they are annoyed that we wish for exceptions/special conditions on our membership and feel we should be either all-in or all out. Arguments that are in reality closely tied.

 

Those that wish us to stay feel the EU is stronger with us in it. A very fair point given our financial contributions and our influence across the world.

 

On reforming the EU I`ve seen very few comments.

 

 

 

 

There was a further part to the original quote I posted. Unfortunately I can`t locate it but It referred to us believing we were still a super power and that we could make our own way in the world and that we were relying on keeping our relationship with the USA which wouldn`t happen and that we`d have no influence if we left. I didn`t post it because it was largely just a rant.

 

But the fact is we do still have an excellent military, one of the largest in the world. We could make our own way in the world with our ties to the commonwealth and our manufacturing capabilities. We have a strong currency and economy and considerable buying power. Plus of course our financial sector is probably the best in the world. If that wasn`t true then the EU wouldn`t care if we left.

[Danger-Mouse]

The Euro has had the affect of allowing Germany to trade with an under-valued currency, just like China has got away with.

 

Yes thank you. That was what I was trying to say. You`ve just put it much better than I did.

[Danger-Mouse]

For those that say we`ll reform the EU from within, this is what you`ll be working against.

 

 

If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'.

On the 2005 French referendum on the Lisbon Treaty

 

I am astonished at those who are afraid of the people: one can always explain that what is in the interest of Europe is in the interests of our countries."
"Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?"
"There is a single legal personality for the EU, the primacy of European law, a new architecture for foreign and security policy, there is an enormous extension in the fields of the EU's powers, there is Charter of Fundamental Rights.

On the Lisbon Treaty,

 

Monetary policy is a serious issue. We should discuss this in secret, in the Eurogroup [...] I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious [...] I am for secret, dark debates.

 

We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.

referring to his colleagues in the European Council

 

When it becomes serious, you have to lie

 

There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties

Originial quote in french: Il ne peut y avoir de choix démocratique contre les traités européens…

 

All the above quotes by

 

Jean-Claude Juncker the man who will most likely be the European Commision President tomorrow.

 

Good luck reforming him.

[rodp]

just saying

 

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You don't have to lie to back up your choice, silly as it may seem

[KFC]

 

I`ve seen a fair number of comments from other europeans and the opinion of a Brexit is mixed.

 

The majority that want to see us leave either follow the line of my earlier quotation, ie that we are disrupting the possibility of closer union. Or they are annoyed that we wish for exceptions/special conditions on our membership and feel we should be either all-in or all out. Arguments that are in reality closely tied.

 

Those that wish us to stay feel the EU is stronger with us in it. A very fair point given our financial contributions and our influence across the world.

 

On reforming the EU I`ve seen very few comments.

 

 

 

 

There was a further part to the original quote I posted. Unfortunately I can`t locate it but It referred to us believing we were still a super power and that we could make our own way in the world and that we were relying on keeping our relationship with the USA which wouldn`t happen and that we`d have no influence if we left. I didn`t post it because it was largely just a rant.

 

But the fact is we do still have an excellent military, one of the largest in the world. We could make our own way in the world with our ties to the commonwealth and our manufacturing capabilities. We have a strong currency and economy and considerable buying power. Plus of course our financial sector is probably the best in the world. If that wasn`t true then the EU wouldn`t care if we left.

another fact is that our military is inextricably tied to America.

Our new destroyers that are now tied up and unusable is because much of the technology is US protected. UK technicians are not allowed to work on many of the components built into the systems because of US IT protection. The US has levied fines for companies carrying out 'unauthorised' work on equipment.

Our Typhoon was out of date by the time it got into service and can only carry out some of the roles it was designed for and our Tornado's are obsolete. The F35 Lightening, which was supposed to replace the Harrier, which was scrapped by America, doesn't work and catches fire.

We no longer have a maritime recce capability so we're having to lease Poseidon P8's from the US as well as C17 transporters.

 

I don't think our military capability will be affected by leaving the EU and NATO is still intact.

[rodp]

Actually, you bought them from the bigger, stronger African tribes/cultures who raided the interior for them.

 

And ? It was just another business then so no shame in it.

[Bad Monkey]

I read this in a thread posted elsewhere about Brexit. Obviously it`s only an individual`s pov and not necessarily very representative but it`s still quite interesting . . .

 

"As a German I hope you guys vote for Brexit simply because that finally means an end to the constant anti-EU bitching by the British and more importantly an end to the massive slow down to European unification of military, police, fiscal and political powers desperately needed to deal with the many Europe wide problems and challenges. I believe many problems like TTIP screwing us over, immigration crisis and the huge amount of corruption in some parts of the EU can only be solved with a stronger Union. Additionally it's the only way to promote European interests on an equal power level with the US, Russia and China all of which can screw over any single EU member alone but not the EU as a whole."

 

So, fairly clear what this person`s vision of Europe is, one huge federal state. A lot of it scares the hell out of me. The only bit I find amusing is that he believes more central control and unification will cut down on corruption. Personally, should his vision come to fruition I can only see the corruption getting worse.

 

I saw another intriguing comment a couple of days ago. I can`t quote it because I don`t remember where it was but it went along these lines. Germany (and this may also apply to France), being a wealthy country, with a huge manufacturing capacity, that has the Euro as it`s currency, has a vested interest in allowing poorer southern/eastern european countries into the EU/Euro. This is because Germany can use it`s wealth/manufacturing advantage to secure higher profits through trade. If Germany still had the Deutschmark it would not be in such a good position because it would undoubtedly be a stronger currency than that of its trading partners and therefore trade would suffer.

 

Presuming that is an accurate assessment (and I`m no economist) then you have to ask where we stand with Sterling? Being as it`s still stronger than the Euro then our trade presumably suffers. Now, obviously even if we vote out that would still be the case. However if we`re out at least we won`t be funding the smaller EU nations. And as more and more countries join the cost to us will only become greater. I see us being forced to put more and more in and get less and less back.

 

Europe's failing, lets have MORE Europe!

[rodp]

 

Yes. But this time they are aiming to dominate Europe using politicians, not soldiers.

At the moment !! What happens as a federal state when they bring in something a member state doesn't like, something that affects only that member state ? At the moment they can do nothing, we have our armed forces. When it's all one federal state then the armed forces will do as THEY say, and we do as they want, like it or not Nice little dumping ground over here for all the unwanted trash, open water to keep them here and an infrastructure already built.

[Danger-Mouse]

At the moment !! What happens as a federal state when they bring in something a member state doesn't like, something that affects only that member state ? At the moment they can do nothing, we have our armed forces. When it's all one federal state then the armed forces will do as THEY say, and we do as they want, like it or not

 

Technically speaking not true. Don`t forget our armed forces swear their loyalty to the Queen not the government.

[rodp]

 

Technically speaking not true. Don`t forget our armed forces swear their loyalty to the Queen not the government.

Yes, at the moment, but would that change (like so many other things) when one big federal state. I would imagine it would, you couldn't have a European armed forces all subject to different leaders.

[Danger-Mouse]

Yes, at the moment, but would that change (like so many other things) when one big federal state. I would imagine it would, you couldn't have a European armed forces all subject to different leaders.

 

I honestly don`t think it would. I`d almost be interested in seeing them try it. I suspect that`s one law that Liz might refuse to sign off on. That`s presuming the armed forces themselves didn`t throw a strop about it. Perhaps some of our military and ex-military guys could comment on it?