Psyxologos Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 As I pointed out earlier; those stats are a snap shot from the movie. Look at the whole picture. The retirement ages, how many in the samples are self employed and therefore have indeterminable hours of work, the zero hours contracts, junior doctors paid for 40 hours who do double that........................ Look at the whole picture. Not just the part you want to portray. And? What is the point you are trying to make? These statistics are of the EU as a whole, if I am not mistaken. The original point of contention was when someone mentioned that british people work longer than their French, Italian and other Europeans. I used a few sources to show that this is not the case, and then came the twist about early retirement (that I did say it is a pan European phenomenon, not just French or british). I do not understand in what respect I am trying to portray a part, as you put it. So, what point are you trying to make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 When I post articles I am always accused I use 'leftie' sources (whatever that means). Do you believe the 'article' you are referring to comes from an objective source? If so, I feel continuing this is futile. Best of luck and all the best. I haven`t accused you of any such thing. True I`ve said that some of the sources you posted were only speculation, and I admit that the article I`ve posted can be viewed the same way. However if we don`t look at both sides of the argument then there is no possibility of a change of mind on either side. (I actually have no idea what the general politics of The Spectator or it`s writers are. However I would like to point out that on the very page where that article is posted there is another attacking Boris Johnson. So whilst individual authors will obviously favour one side or the other, either by informed research or perhaps by simple political bias the organisation itself would appear to be somewhat neutral in it`s approach to publishing.) I think it`s fair to say that you have focused far more on the economic repercussions of a Brexit than I have and I was just providing an alternate view to the ones you have posted in the hope it would be food for thought. How much or how little consideration you wish to give it is completely up to you. I`ve also stated that my concerns over the EU are far more about our powers of legislation than they are about the possible economic repercussions. So I would like to ask you if you have revised your opinion that you stated in post 610 of this debate and that I replied to in post 618? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 I haven`t accused you of any such thing. True I`ve said that some of the sources you posted were only speculation, and I admit that the article I`ve posted can be viewed the same way. However if we don`t look at both sides of the argument then there is no possibility of a change of mind on either side. (...) I think it`s fair to say that you have focused far more on the economic repercussions of a Brexit than I have and I was just providing an alternate view to the ones you have posted in the hope it would be food for thought. How much or how little consideration you wish to give it is completely up to you. I`ve also stated that my concerns over the EU are far more about our powers of legislation than they are about the possible economic repercussions. So I would like to ask you if you have revised your opinion that you stated in post 610 of this debate and that I replied to in post 618? I did not mean it was you who accused me of this. Others have though, and I thought it was unfair, seeing that I used the FT, LSE, official statistics websites etc. Anyway, I do not disagree with you on this. Both sides need to be represented. I had no particular intention to concentrate on the financial aspect of things. My contributions to this thread are mainly responses to issues raised by others. My opinion on post 610 remains the same, as I do believe (I am not certain but I will look into that soon, hopefully) that there are powers built in so that each member state can challenge the implementation of these EU laws from the member state. As I said I am not certain about this, but I recall that this was the case on several instances in the past. Have a good night and all the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossberg-operator Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 There are 2M Brits living in the EU, 800k retired in Spain. What will happen to them if Brexit? The whole EU is under strain because 1-2M migrants. Imagine the scale of the problem if this is happening in 1 country. The UK. Migrants going, Brits coming? Any thoughts on this guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 And? What is the point you are trying to make? These statistics are of the EU as a whole, if I am not mistaken. The original point of contention was when someone mentioned that british people work longer than their French, Italian and other Europeans. I used a few sources to show that this is not the case, and then came the twist about early retirement (that I did say it is a pan European phenomenon, not just French or british). I do not understand in what respect I am trying to portray a part, as you put it. So, what point are you trying to make? You posted a link that you said proved that British people don't work as long hours as some continentals. It didn't show that British people work longer as you claim. The length of employment is as important as the number of hours per week. As it is your links are not representative of anything. They come with caveats and are just cherry picked examples to try and prove your point. As has already been posted; the working hours example you posted a link to doesn't allow for disparities in working practices amongst member states, particularly regards part time working. So in effect it is useless. I don't understand why you are so involved in posting snap shots of surveys, polls and other piecemeal statistical data to prove or disprove certain points when you clearly don't understand the fuller picture. You are keen to paint 'Out' supporters such as Gove black and claim that they are or were corrupt, yet you remain quiet on the 'In' supporters. Are they really that squeaky clean? What about the latest report that DC is intending using the next round of selecting Peers as a reward for his 'In' supporters? You are desperate to prove a point, but unable to do so. Whilst I will read your future responses I will not reply to them as I don't really think that you know what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulnix Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) Since you brought up the Greek labour market, I would like to know where you draw the conclusion that part time employment is rare there. I can tell you that you could not be any further from the truth. Like the UK, France and Germany, zero hours contracts, part time work and similar arrangements are very common in Spain, Greece, Italy and Portugal. This is a terrible thing for the working population, as by being part time their employer can avoid paying them the holiday allowance they would otherwise get (proportional to their working hours) as well as other obligations towards their employees. Things are not as black and white as you might see them. From the OECD site itself. Plus can't help but see the irony in that last statement about being black and white as they seem, YOU were the one posting up a selected set of stats without any explanation behind how it was calculated. They only way to truly see who is working hardest is to divide the total working hours by all of age and able to work incl the unemployed. But that doesn't allow one side or another to pick out bits which suit their own agenda does it ? Edited February 26, 2016 by paulnix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 There are 2M Brits living in the EU, 800k retired in Spain. What will happen to them if Brexit? The whole EU is under strain because 1-2M migrants. Imagine the scale of the problem if this is happening in 1 country. The UK. Migrants going, Brits coming? Any thoughts on this guys? No worse than the people who retire and emigrate to non EU countries, such as America, Australia, New Zealand.to be with relatives.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Who knows how many hours people work though? I bet the Greeks just say they work long hours in the same way that they say they don't earn any money and therefore pay little tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 There are 2M Brits living in the EU, 800k retired in Spain. What will happen to them if Brexit? The whole EU is under strain because 1-2M migrants. Imagine the scale of the problem if this is happening in 1 country. The UK. Migrants going, Brits coming? Any thoughts on this guys? Nothing will happen to them, in exactly the same way nothing will happen to EU citizens already living in the UK. Spain is a basket case economy compared to the UK's, and those Brits who have retired there will be drawing their pensions from the UK, plus any private arrangements they may have. I would think it highly likely those who have retired there will be pumping vast amounts of much needed cash into the Spanish economy. As for the other 1.2 million Brits living and working in the EU area, that's 1.2 million people spread over 27 countries. The UK alone had a net migration figure last year of 323,000... that's simply unsustainable. Nobody's saying immigration is a bad thing, or that in the event of a Brexit all foreigners will be deported and no more will be allowed in. What people want is a system that benefits the people and economy of this country, not the ideology of the bloated bureaucrats in Brussels. We led the world in fair and equal immigration policy long before the EU project was hatched. Does it not make sense to know who is coming to live in this country? Does it not make sense to make sure that those wishing to come here are going to help this country, and are of no threat to its people? Of course it does... After all you wouldn't let a stranger wander round your house and garden would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Does it not make sense to know who is coming to live in this country? Does it not make sense to make sure that those wishing to come here are going to help this country, and are of no threat to its people? Of course it does... After all you wouldn't let a stranger wander round your house and garden would you? Couldn't have put it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longspoon Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Spot on poontang... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Does it not make sense to know who is coming to live in this country? Does it not make sense to make sure that those wishing to come here are going to help this country, and are of no threat to its people? Of course it does... After all you wouldn't let a stranger wander round your house and garden would you? Agreed. I would only add, does it not make sense that those who have no right to be here are removed immediately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Amongst the ex-pats in France and I've no doubt will include those in Spain and Cyprus amongst others there is a growing fear of the outcome should the UK leave the EU. For one thing the medical care will change. At the moment there is a reciprocal agreement amongst EU countries. That would mean massive annual health care insurance bills for some folk. Secondly, UK old age pensions would be frozen and not subject to annual increases in the same way that pensions to ex-pats outside the EU are. Those who wish to continue to reside in France would have to apply for the right and that may involve criteria such as being able to speak the language to a decent degree and prove that health care insurance was in place. There may be changes to the tax situation too. Many would panic and sell up to return to the UK. That adds to the old age health care in the UK and destabilisers the local housing markets which are already deflated. Some people would have no choice but to rent if they couldn't sell their houses or had to take a large cut in the selling price. Those with businesses that are largely dependent on serving ex-pats would have their incomes severely reduced. Similarly many French people currently working in the UK would have to apply for work permits and some would be forced to return. It isn't as cut and dried as some think. I think from reading ex-pat forums in France and Cyprus the overwhelming majority would vote to remain in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Who knows how many hours people work though? I bet the Greeks just say they work long hours in the same way that they say they don't earn any money and therefore pay little tax. From my own personal observations in Cyprus aka 'Little Greece' the locals work tremendously long hours and often have two or three jobs to make ends meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 My friends in France are already paying health insurance over there. They will definitely be voting OUT, they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 My friends in France are already paying health insurance over there. They will definitely be voting OUT, they say. If they are drawing UK old age pensions then the basic health cover is paid for by the UK and any top up health cover is optional. The top up cover is like an insurance policy where you choose the level of cover you want, pay accordingly and receive money back towards bills for optical work or dentistry for example. If they are under the UK old age retirement age as I am, then they have two options; seek work in which case the basic level of health care is funded by France or take out an insurance for the basic health care. Many ex-pats who receive UK old age pensions also pay for top up health care. It is like joining BUPA, You get much better treatment and sometimes a lot quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 If they are drawing UK old age pensions then the basic health cover is paid for by the UK and any top up health cover is optional. It's costing c£150 a month for the wife, who has just had a knee replacement. They are both over 70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 It's costing c£150 a month for the wife, who has just had a knee replacement. They are both over 70. If the UK leave the EU the cost of their health cover may be considerably more, unless the UK government continues to fund health care to OAPs living in the EU. They don't cover Brits living outside the EU so it is a real issue. http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/movingabroad/Pages/Introduction.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 If the UK leave the EU the cost of their health cover may be considerably more, unless the UK government continues to fund health care to OAPs living in the EU. They don't cover Brits living outside the EU so it is a real issue. http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/movingabroad/Pages/Introduction.aspx If we leave EU would it not make sense for the UK to continue paying the medical bills of retired expats, would this not stop them from selling up and returning to the UK or am I missing somthing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 If we leave EU would it not make sense for the UK to continue paying the medical bills of retired expats, would this not stop them from selling up and returning to the UK or am I missing somthing? If every ex-pat, or even most of them decided to sell up and leave there would be a large decrease in the price of properties in a market that is already deflated. Many Brits currently wanting to return to the UK are caught in a negative property market in that the prices in France, Cyprus and Spain are at rock bottom and comparable prices in the UK are much higher. I know many people over here who wouldn't get half of what they have put into their French properties if they sold now. Should the UK leave the EU property prices in France, Spain and Cyprus would drop even more. Also, any exodus of ex-pats would have a negative effect on many British owned businesses such as cafes and bars. Personally I don't know what we would do. I love it here and because I run my own business I have French health cover paid by the French government. But, I would lose most if not all of my customer base and have to rely on my UK police pension as my only means of income. As we only bought this house two years ago we wouldn't lose too much on it if we sold now. But two years down the line given an 'Out' vote I'd probably be £30k down. And there is nowhere in the UK that I could buy a comparable house at double the current worth let alone at 70% of its value. That is the big dilemma for ex-pats and that is why many will vote to remain in the EU despite all the negatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big bad lindz Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 That is the big dilemma for ex-pats and that is why many will vote to remain in the EU despite all the negatives. Am I wrong in saying that if you currently live outwith the UK and within the EU and are not a registered UK voter with a UK address that you will not be able to vote ?? During the Scottish referendum, Scots not living in Scotland or a registered voter in Scotland, did not have a vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 An interesting point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Am I wrong in saying that if you currently live outwith the UK and within the EU and are not a registered UK voter with a UK address that you will not be able to vote ?? During the Scottish referendum, Scots not living in Scotland or a registered voter in Scotland, did not have a vote The current regulations are that any ex-pat who has been out of the UK for less than 15 years can register to vote in elections or referendums. Registration is made initially via the UK Government and then by your last Town or City Council that you were registered to vote with. So many ex-pats will be voting in the referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Similarly many French people currently working in the UK would have to apply for work permits and some would be forced to return. I would find that highly unlikely. I would think it pretty difficult to change the agreements to pensions and healthcare too. Bringing in retrospective legislation would be a minefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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