THE EU - IN OR OUT AND SHOOTING MATTERS

[Rewulf]

 

 

If we leave we will still have high immigration rates. We could cut the number of immigrants by half tomorrow if the political will was there as the majority of immigrants come from outside the EU not from within it. But we are an ageing population making high demands on our NHS and these demands will go up in the near future. So our Nation insurance is going to have to rise steeply to pay for the NHS unless we get a pool of workers who pay tax and NI and make little demands on the NHS ect. Most immigrants are young, make few demands on our social security, but they are paying the tax needed to run our NHS.

 

How could we cut the number of immigrants by half tomorrow? We cannot stop EU migrants from entering this country at all.

 

And let me get this straight , we need more migrants to man the NHS so they can pay tax and NI to keep paying for the NHS ?

What kind of lunatic maths is that ?

You do realise the NHS and its staffs wages are paid for by public money?

For every £4 we pay them out of the public purse we get ,maybe a £1 back in tax.

Lets get another couple of hundred thousand then and we'll be sorted..NOT!

[panoma1]

You really have to ignore, almost completely, the arguments being put forwards by the absolute numpties heading up the "Remain" or "Leave" camps. They are putting forward non-arguments centred on winning popular vote through sensationalist politics much of which is based on untruths at worst and on shaky ground at best.

 

The real facts don't need to forward that many specific figures as the average "Joe" in the street has the tools to inform themselves (ie google Office for National Statistics, or the CBI reports and make your own mind up based on any agendas which may lay beneath their figures or presentation).

 

The real facts are these:

 

 

• The Euro is failing and will continue to drop in value. The richer EU nations have to accept that the poorer forgo the original concepts of confirming to financial entry criteria, in effect leaving the better off countries funding their entry, including funding their social reform bills which are HUGE. This is why the Euro will keep on falling, that and the need to pay for bailing out Greece and Italy and Spain who are all running massive deficits and who owe a shed load of cash to the EU which we all know they haven't a snowballs' chance in hell of repaying;

• The open borders may only account for 50% immigration from the EU but much of that (proven) is for the lower wage categories such as minimum wage farm work and in effect, many recent studies have demonstrated how this has held down our own wages whilst crippling many rural economies by denying the young the sort of labouring jobs they once could walk into. Not any more. There are gang hands now controlling who works where and in many cases they exercise positive discrimination towards the Polish and Lithuanians and Romanians who come over for such work;

• Salaried and unelected bureaucrats run the EU, not our democratically elected MEPs. They may forward papers and may be involved in Euro wide consultation with the European Parliament but they do not have the power to pass EU law. We have very little influence in reality, and less so since Cameron got into power and pretty much alienated the UK from the rest of Europe with his childish and arrogant non-diplomacy. He simply is not skilled nor experienced enough. The UK has forgotten the major point that Churchill himself made about Britain's place in Europe, and that is: we MUST remain the EU's staunchest allie and be friends with our European neighbours without actually becoming part of the Federal Union. So what do we do? We entrench ourselves within the federal union and ruin relations with our EU neighbours....nice one. Shows the true calibre of our politicians.

• We do not operate a true democracy and in effect, no country does, but what we have is as good as it gets. Forget ideology and look around you at the real world. Look at Europe and ask yourself "is this model even part way realistically a democracy anymore?" and the answer, is very clearly "NO!". Many EU laws are passed by unelected Bureaucrats. We have little to no say. That's a fact. Our laws if they clash with EU laws, become subservient to them, so in effect, the EU's attempts at reducing cultural boundaries in readiness for a Federal United States of Europe has destroyed a sense of national identity and weakened our own judicial system;

• Immigration cannot be controlled under the current system of open borders. At least if we leave we can enact tighter laws and controls but it oculd take 5 years to see any real improvement to controls. Don't kid yourselves much will change overnight as it wont. In fact things will get worse if we leave since the Schengen agreement at least means that the French have to enact border controls at their sea ports on our behalf to prevent illegal immigration from those outside the EU. Those border controls will vanish overnight if we leave and our own border controls are completely ineffective since we have no navy nor effective coast guard protection in the way of staffing and patrols nor in sufficient detention centres. Who will pay for all of this? You will when it happens.

• Trade will carry on regardless of what Bliar, Major and Cameron say. Do they think we're stupid? However we wont benefit from the deals we have at the minute so the cost of trading will have to rise, and , just like Norway and Iceland, we WILL have to comply with EU wide trading legislation including emplyment laws, H&S laws etc but I see that as a positive thing since left to out own devices, the government would screw the average working man given half the chance. Our current VAT wouldnt disaapear and we wouldn't be better off by 20% overnight, as it would have to contribute towards the costs of compliance with EU trade agreements, IF reached.

The outlook either way is not rosy, is it? lets be honest...whether we stay or leave, things are going to get tougher. Only those in denial about the facts could argue against that. The big "however" is that the "unknown" wont be unknown for that long and at most, 5 to 10 years is what most respected economists suggest for the UK recovering growth and for Sterling stabilising. There is no recession looming...look to the stock market....how many companies are going out of business at the prospect? Even the head of a large coffee chain employing 35,000 people in the UK is firmly in the "leave" camp as he believes it's opur best chance of long term growth and reclaiming our democracy.#

 

In conclusion; you'd have to be barmy to vote "leave" IF the status quo was maintained as we are not only the world's 5th largest economy and one of the highest growth economies in the EU, and it is the membership of the EU that has enabled that, simple as. However, the status quo will NOT be maintained. Our veto is up for grabs again and the historical trend for our net contribution has risen from around an average of under 5 Billion per annum a decade or so ago to 8 Billion now, and is forecast to rise to 10 Billion int he next few years. That DOESN@T account for the cost of administrating our EU membership here in the UK. The administration burden amounts to many millions of pounds per year more, so the true net figures, which don;t currently account for this, have been conveniently left out of the figures that the "stay" camp are banding about. Add to that continued uncontrolled immigration and the toll on our welfare services will be terminal within a few short years (as in 2 or 3 if you trust the figures being banded about) and the only thing that can pay for that will be a raid on state pensions, an increase in pensionable ages and a rise in taxes. We are all set to become very much poorer if we remain in the EU for a very long time to come.

 

The final consideration is that the EU is indeed falling apart with Italy threatening to leave next, and Greece has to leave to survive now. Us pulling out will be the catalyst to this happening. It will happen anyway and the debts left will be shared amongst those still in, and since we have one of the largest payments, we will carry a large burden of that in some way shape or form even if we are not in the Eurozone, we are tied financially to it. It will hit us most likely in the rebate reductions planned.

 

At least getting out now, we can hit the unknown head-on and chip away until we have made it much less certain by getting a head start on trade deals, controlling our borders and reclaiming our democracy.

 

Too lazy to write it.....but what he said! Lol

[Livefast123]

Very well put Savhmr!

Edited June 10, 2016 by Livefast123

[Danger-Mouse]

 

How could we cut the number of immigrants by half tomorrow? We cannot stop EU migrants from entering this country at all.

 

What he`s suggesting could be done is totally cutting off immigration from outside the EU. Don`t allow all those nice people from our Commonwealth with whom we share history, a language and a legal system to enter here any more.

[12gauge82]

That's a neat litle Lib/Dem style theory which unfortunately isn't borne out in practice. A very high proportion of immigrants, especially those from outside the EU, have multiple health issues up to and including disabilities and this has been the case ever since large scale immigration from India/Pakistan/Sri Lanka began in the 60s. Even now, these countries cannot provide a full scale health service to their own people, and the NHS, as it always has been, is a gigantic magnet to such people. And now we are seeing ever increasing numbers of young male "refugees" from Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya etc. and multiple **** holes in Africa, the problem of supporting people with no education, no skills, often no language and nowhere to live causes ever increasing costs to the taxpayer and with no end in sight.

 

Huge numbers of immigrants want to work but they rarely have any desire to fully participate in our society. They want the money, the schools, the NHS, the tax credits etc for a few years whilst they raise their children and remit as much cash as possible back to their home country but hardly any EU migrants when surveyed, expect to stay more than a few years.

 

I seriously doubt if, on balance, mass immigration brings any tangible economic benefit to the country and I wouldn't be surprised if it actually costs us. Today's situation is incomparably different from earlier times when people migrated here wanting to stay and integrate. Instead, what we have today is a situation where this country adds value to the lives of 100s of thousands of temporary residents and their dependants across the world, whereas what we actually need and want is 10s of thousands who add value to Britain as well as to themselves.

Well said and on the note of migration benefitting the country I'm not convinced either, when politicians lie I mean talk they don't say who it benefits I can see it benefitting the boss of sports direct etc but not your average working class family, I think it's more political half truths

[anser2]

 

How could we cut the number of immigrants by half tomorrow? We cannot stop EU migrants from entering this country at all.

 

And let me get this straight , we need more migrants to man the NHS so they can pay tax and NI to keep paying for the NHS ?

What kind of lunatic maths is that ?

You do realise the NHS and its staffs wages are paid for by public money?

For every £4 we pay them out of the public purse we get ,maybe a £1 back in tax.

Lets get another couple of hundred thousand then and we'll be sorted..NOT!

In answer to your question rewulf we could easily cut the number of immigrants coming into this country tomorrow if the political will was there . Over half the immigrants coming into this country do not come from the EU and as such have no protection from the EU and could be refused entry but this Tory government will not do that.

 

Secondly the NHS question. The native population is living longer and making more demands on the NHS than ever before and this will increase in the future as modern medicine improves and we all live longer. We are having less kids , kids that would be paying tax to run the NHS in 20 or more years time. So where is the money going to come from to pay the soaring NHS costs. We could increase taxes , but the huge amounts needed are going to mean a serious tax rise. The Contrary to what has is suggesting the vast majority of immigrants are young fit people who are here to work and they will be paying far more into our tax system than the benefits they are getting out. Personally I do not want to see a huge rise in our population and indeed would love to see the population of our country drop by 25% , but its simple economic fact if we want a NHS we are going to have to get the money from somewhere and we have three choices , have a massive rise in tax, cut other government departments to the bone , the armed forces perhaps or do away with many departments all together. I work for a government department which has a direct impact on the countryside who has seen its budget cut by 25% in the last decade and is set to further cuts of 37% by 2020 which will result in a third of the staff losing their jobs so perhaps we should close it all together and forget about protecting our countryside and the majority of the funds that go into countryside protection come from the EU in the form of HLS grants.

 

I think many on the leave side here are wanting to turn the clock back to a time when we were an independent nation, we had a 3 day week, rubbish went for months uncollected on the streets due to industrial unrest and we were known as the sick man of Europe due to our poor economic performance. The world has moved on. We joined the EU and we have prospered into the nation we are today , rich and prosperous because of the EU and its trading system. Now we have some right wing loonies like Farage ( who are not even English , but German\French by decent) who want to destroy the one thing that has lifted this country out of ruin by taking us out of the EU. The EU has a lot of things wrong with it but despite this it has been of great benefit to this country. As I said before I do not like the EU , but if you want to prosper it’s a necessary evil.

 

We all have a right to our own opinions about staying in the EU or leaving all I would say is ignore the lies of Farage, Camron, Boris , and the others, ignore the Daily Mail and Express , just spend a couple of hours doing a web search of non political, independant web sites before making your mind up. For me I want a strong country that I and my children can prosper in , not to return to " the sick man of Europe" so I will now be voting to remain.

Edited June 10, 2016 by anser2

[rjimmer]

The immigrants that I have worked with, send more money back home than they pay in tax here. 10 years ago, a figure of £2.3Bn going back to Poland per year, was published

[anser2]

But Rjimmer we all earn more in wages than tax , but the tax on those wages stays in the UK ( apart from a small percentage that goes to the EU).

[ShootingEgg]

The immigrants that I have worked with, send more money back home than they pay in tax here. 10 years ago, a figure of £2.3Bn going back to Poland per year, was published

And it is still happening...

[bang bang birdy]

You really have to ignore, almost completely, the arguments being put forwards by the absolute numpties heading up the "Remain" or "Leave" camps. They are putting forward non-arguments centred on winning popular vote through sensationalist politics much of which is based on untruths at worst and on shaky ground at best.

 

The real facts don't need to forward that many specific figures as the average "Joe" in the street has the tools to inform themselves (ie google Office for National Statistics, or the CBI reports and make your own mind up based on any agendas which may lay beneath their figures or presentation).

 

The real facts are these:

 

• The Euro is failing and will continue to drop in value. The richer EU nations have to accept that the poorer forgo the original concepts of confirming to financial entry criteria, in effect leaving the better off countries funding their entry, including funding their social reform bills which are HUGE. This is why the Euro will keep on falling, that and the need to pay for bailing out Greece and Italy and Spain who are all running massive deficits and who owe a shed load of cash to the EU which we all know they haven't a snowballs' chance in hell of repaying;

• The open borders may only account for 50% immigration from the EU but much of that (proven) is for the lower wage categories such as minimum wage farm work and in effect, many recent studies have demonstrated how this has held down our own wages whilst crippling many rural economies by denying the young the sort of labouring jobs they once could walk into. Not any more. There are gang hands now controlling who works where and in many cases they exercise positive discrimination towards the Polish and Lithuanians and Romanians who come over for such work;

• Salaried and unelected bureaucrats run the EU, not our democratically elected MEPs. They may forward papers and may be involved in Euro wide consultation with the European Parliament but they do not have the power to pass EU law. We have very little influence in reality, and less so since Cameron got into power and pretty much alienated the UK from the rest of Europe with his childish and arrogant non-diplomacy. He simply is not skilled nor experienced enough. The UK has forgotten the major point that Churchill himself made about Britain's place in Europe, and that is: we MUST remain the EU's staunchest allie and be friends with our European neighbours without actually becoming part of the Federal Union. So what do we do? We entrench ourselves within the federal union and ruin relations with our EU neighbours....nice one. Shows the true calibre of our politicians.

• We do not operate a true democracy and in effect, no country does, but what we have is as good as it gets. Forget ideology and look around you at the real world. Look at Europe and ask yourself "is this model even part way realistically a democracy anymore?" and the answer, is very clearly "NO!". Many EU laws are passed by unelected Bureaucrats. We have little to no say. That's a fact. Our laws if they clash with EU laws, become subservient to them, so in effect, the EU's attempts at reducing cultural boundaries in readiness for a Federal United States of Europe has destroyed a sense of national identity and weakened our own judicial system;

• Immigration cannot be controlled under the current system of open borders. At least if we leave we can enact tighter laws and controls but it could take 5 years to see any real improvement to controls. Don't kid yourselves much will change overnight as it wont. In fact things will get worse if we leave since the Schengen agreement at least means that the French have to enact border controls at their sea ports on our behalf to prevent illegal immigration from those outside the EU. Those border controls will vanish overnight if we leave and our own border controls are completely ineffective since we have no navy nor effective coast guard protection in the way of staffing and patrols nor in sufficient detention centres. Who will pay for all of this? You will when it happens.

• Trade will carry on regardless of what Bliar, Major and Cameron say. Do they think we're stupid? However we wont benefit from the deals we have at the minute so the cost of trading will have to rise, and , just like Norway and Iceland, we WILL have to comply with EU wide trading legislation including employment laws, H&S laws etc but I see that as a positive thing since left to out own devices, the government would screw the average working man given half the chance. Our current VAT wouldn't disappear and we wouldn't be better off by 20% overnight, as it would have to contribute towards the costs of compliance with EU trade agreements, IF reached.

The outlook either way is not rosy, is it? lets be honest...whether we stay or leave, things are going to get tougher. Only those in denial about the facts could argue against that. The big "however" is that the "unknown" wont be unknown for that long and at most, 5 to 10 years is what most respected economists suggest for the UK recovering growth and for Sterling stabilising. There is no recession looming...look to the stock market....how many companies are going out of business at the prospect? Even the head of a large coffee chain employing 35,000 people in the UK is firmly in the "leave" camp as he believes it's our best chance of long term growth and reclaiming our democracy.

 

In conclusion; you'd have to be barmy to vote "leave" IF the status quo was maintained as we are not only the world's 5th largest economy and one of the highest growth economies in the EU, and it is the membership of the EU that has enabled that, simple as. However, the status quo will NOT be maintained. Our veto is up for grabs again and the historical trend for our net contribution has risen from around an average of under 5 Billion per annum a decade or so ago to 8 Billion now, and is forecast to rise to 10 Billion in the next few years. That DOESN'T account for the cost of administrating our EU membership here in the UK. The administration burden amounts to many millions of pounds per year more, so the true net figures, which don't currently account for this, have been conveniently left out of the figures that the "stay" camp are banding about. Add to that continued uncontrolled immigration and the toll on our welfare services will be terminal within a few short years (as in 2 or 3 if you trust the figures being banded about) and the only thing that can pay for that will be a raid on state pensions, an increase in pensionable ages and a rise in taxes. We are all set to become very much poorer if we remain in the EU for a very long time to come.

 

The final consideration is that the EU is indeed falling apart with Italy threatening to leave next, and Greece has to leave to survive now. Us pulling out will be the catalyst to this happening. It will happen anyway and the debts left will be shared amongst those still in, and since we have one of the largest payments, we will carry a large burden of that in some way shape or form even if we are not in the Eurozone, we are tied financially to it. It will hit us most likely in the rebate reductions planned.

 

At least getting out now, we can hit the unknown head-on and chip away until we have made it much more certain by getting a head-start on trade deals, controlling our borders and reclaiming our democracy.

Good post very informative and well written

Plus 1 for leave

Welcome to the unknown

[rjimmer]

There is a slaughterhouse in Dorset employing a lot of Polish chaps. 7 years ago, one of them had already bought 6 houses back in Poland. Redistribution of wealth and health, it's called Socialism. We will be bled dry.

[FalconFN]

There is a slaughterhouse in Dorset employing a lot of Polish chaps. 7 years ago, one of them had already bought 6 houses back in Poland. Redistribution of wealth and health, it's called Socialism. We will be bled dry.

Or, in the real world it's called capitalism.

 

If a Pole on or near minimum wage can buy 7 houses in Poland it says more about the cost of housing in Poland than anything else - or are you suggesting the government are pumping tax payers money into knackers yards now?

[rjimmer]

I've been told they earn £800-£1,000 a week, killing cattle for Tesco.

[FalconFN]

I've been told they earn £800-£1,000 a week, killing cattle for Tesco.

And?

 

Why don't you do it and then you can buy 6 housed in Poland instead of bleating about someone else having the gumption to get off their backside and live the capitalist dream?

[mossberg-operator]

And?

Why don't you do it and then you can buy 6 housed in Poland instead of bleating about someone else having the gumption to get off their backside and live the capitalist dream?

Second that! Well said!

[rjimmer]

Done that, got the T-shirt. Was earning more than an MP in the 60's, carrying bricks up ladders. I could probably buy dozens of houses in Poland if I cashed in the ones I own in the UK.

"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe."- Mikhail Gorbachev

[wymberley]

Done that, got the T-shirt. Was earning more than an MP in the 60's, carrying bricks up ladders. I could probably buy dozens of houses in Poland if I cashed in the ones I own in the UK.

"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe."- Mikhail Gorbachev

'Super Hod', perhaps?

[Rewulf]

In answer to your question rewulf we could easily cut the number of immigrants coming into this country tomorrow if the political will was there . Over half the immigrants coming into this country do not come from the EU and as such have no protection from the EU and could be refused entry but this Tory government will not do that.

 

You completely missed the point here,what I said was we cannot cut EU migrants coming into this country because EU law forbids it.

Non EU migrants ,refugees ect are a different matter,but I believe the EU policy of welcoming everyone and anyone has been and will continue to be totally disastrous.

Germany took over a million last year,by next year they will be EU citizens with a right to travel here if they so choose,and if we are still 'in' nothing we can do to stop them.

 

Secondly the NHS question. The native population is living longer and making more demands on the NHS than ever before and this will increase in the future as modern medicine improves and we all live longer. We are having less kids , kids that would be paying tax to run the NHS in 20 or more years time. So where is the money going to come from to pay the soaring NHS costs. We could increase taxes , but the huge amounts needed are going to mean a serious tax rise. The Contrary to what has is suggesting the vast majority of immigrants are young fit people who are here to work and they will be paying far more into our tax system than the benefits they are getting out. Personally I do not want to see a huge rise in our population and indeed would love to see the population of our country drop by 25% , but its simple economic fact if we want a NHS we are going to have to get the money from somewhere and we have three choices , have a massive rise in tax, cut other government departments to the bone , the armed forces perhaps or do away with many departments all together. I work for a government department which has a direct impact on the countryside who has seen its budget cut by 25% in the last decade and is set to further cuts of 37% by 2020 which will result in a third of the staff losing their jobs so perhaps we should close it all together and forget about protecting our countryside and the majority of the funds that go into countryside protection come from the EU in the form of HLS grants.

 

I understand if the NHS is to continue it needs more money,but if one man or woman comes to work here and pays tax,from the EU or otherwise,how does that help when they bring their elderly relatives over,or children.

One mans tax does not pay for five peoples medical bills.

But thats only half the story,the big issue is pensions,has this country got the working populations tax money to pay for that in the coming years?

I know we have paid into it,well most of us have,but does that money still exist? Or has it been spent on something else?

Why do you think they keep pushing retirement age forward ?

 

I think many on the leave side here are wanting to turn the clock back to a time when we were an independent nation, we had a 3 day week, rubbish went for months uncollected on the streets due to industrial unrest and we were known as the sick man of Europe due to our poor economic performance. The world has moved on. We joined the EU and we have prospered into the nation we are today , rich and prosperous because of the EU and its trading system. Now we have some right wing loonies like Farage ( who are not even English , but German\French by decent) who want to destroy the one thing that has lifted this country out of ruin by taking us out of the EU. The EU has a lot of things wrong with it but despite this it has been of great benefit to this country. As I said before I do not like the EU , but if you want to prosper it’s a necessary evil.

 

Who is to say we wouldnt have pulled ourselves out of the doldrums anyway?

The EEC as a trading agreement was a good idea,the EU as a primary government above our own,is a terrible idea,it creates confusion and as I have said before has a track record of achieving pretty much nothing except hindering growth.

And to say ' right wing loonies like Farage ( who are not even English , but German\French by decent) ' isnt embracing EU ideals of 'oneness ' now is it ?

 

We all have a right to our own opinions about staying in the EU or leaving all I would say is ignore the lies of Farage, Camron, Boris , and the others, ignore the Daily Mail and Express , just spend a couple of hours doing a web search of non political, independant web sites before making your mind up. For me I want a strong country that I and my children can prosper in , not to return to " the sick man of Europe" so I will now be voting to remain.

 

Believe it or not,and Im getting tired of saying this, not everyone who wants out, reads the right wing rags and secretly keeps a nazi stormtrooper uniform in his wardrobe.

I want out because I am genuinely fearful for my childrens future if we stay shackled to the EU.

I also think this country could do with a kick in the derriere ,to get some of these layabouts into work.

There is your tax money, being spent on people to NOT work,when they could be working and paying tax,we import foreign labour because successive governments havnt the balls to tackle our home grown lazy.

In times past this country has pulled together when faced with adversity, so lets see if we are little England or Great Britain.

[rjimmer]

'Super Hod', perhaps?

Max had his own plastering gang.

[Savhmr]

 

Believe it or not,and Im getting tired of saying this, not everyone who wants out, reads the right wing rags and secretly keeps a nazi stormtrooper uniform in his wardrobe.

I want out because I am genuinely fearful for my childrens future if we stay shackled to the EU.

I also think this country could do with a kick in the derriere ,to get some of these layabouts into work.

There is your tax money, being spent on people to NOT work,when they could be working and paying tax,we import foreign labour because successive governments havnt the balls to tackle our home grown lazy.

In times past this country has pulled together when faced with adversity, so lets see if we are little England or Great Britain.

 

 

Well said Rewulf.

 

What MOST people in both camps seem blindly unaware of is that there are a number of new restriction and rules heading our way but these are being kept quiet till after the vote because they don’t what us to know about them just before the referendum. I hear they are a common rate on income tax, a common pension across the EU.

 

Look at Spain/Portugal: 47% unemployment and rising. Greece is fujked for the next 40 years; Italy knows it's heading the same way if it decides to stay (which it wont) and now the bosses of Dyson and JCB have come out and stated that we'll be sorry if we stay and that with ever growing restrictions to trade, over bureaucracy and the growing costs of membership, we're FAR better of seeking alternative markets. The EU may be one of the world's largest single markets. It is NOT the easiest nor the cheapest to do business with.

 

The whole political debate is as fishy as a fishy thing that's been playing sardines in an old fishing net....our current government is imho corrupt to the core and has other reasons for being so vociferous with its lies and damned lies. They know full well what is heading our way, so are they acting in our best interests telling us that its a jump in the dark to remain?

 

Lets praisie the forecast if we stay:

 

1. Rising cost of membership heading our way with a reported cut to current rebates (part of Camerons deal with the EU)
2. Look to our EU neighbours: Greece is economically crippled, Italy is heading that way, Spain has record unemployment and little to offer the next generation
3. Forecast increase to uncontrolled immigration
4. harmonisation of income tax and pensions EU wide in some of the biggest socialist (Marxist) reform plans to date which will hit our pensioners and our working population hard.

The UK poor will become poorer, the elite will thrive.

 

And there are still people shouting "stay!" from the rooftops? Really? WAKE UP....this isn't fantasy, it's happening....do your homework and vote LEAVE for the sake of our kids futures if for no other reason.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Savhmr

[Granett]

Stay! The moment you make an argument listing JCB and Dyson, you open the way for the insurmountable number of equal or more qualified and independent voices saying remain.

 

In the pub, the fact the pub bore is braying on, and everyone else is silent doesn't mean the pub bore is right.

[Shotguneddy]

Out

[Rewulf]

Stay! The moment you make an argument listing JCB and Dyson, you open the way for the insurmountable number of equal or more qualified and independent voices saying remain.

 

In the pub, the fact the pub bore is braying on, and everyone else is silent doesn't mean the pub bore is right.

 

I believe the remain camp started out by saying this or that company supported remain,or this or that clever person thinks we would be better off staying.

The fact that 2 of the most successful companies in the UK who both trade a great deal with Europe and the rest of the world have come out independently and supported leaving is not 'opening the way ' for anything really is it ?

And who on earth is this pub bore..you?

[Savhmr]

Ok,

 

Dyson to one side (and there's an irony about Dyson wanting us to leave as he's already left....for Malaysia!!!) lets look at what EU membership has done to UK business in recent years. This is a long list, so deep breath:

 

For those still undecided or living in some fantasy world about the EU being good for British jobs, lets have a little look at what's happened with the full collusion of the UK government over the past few years (some content kindly reproduced from notes made by Kevin Mackay, SEO EEAPS):

OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,..

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the

pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

This from Kevin:

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.

2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.

3/ You don't care.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Savhmr

[Granett]

Rewulf, the pub bore is anyone spouting FACTS without any substantiation.

 

You've understood the other point either. Most brexiteers have studiously refrained from arguing X says we should stay. That's because there are so many better commentators saying we should remain. By listing JCB and Dyson you appear to be acknowledging that argument has weight.

 

And is that an ad hominem logical fallacy rounding off your post?

Edited June 11, 2016 by Granett