NHS a costly failed experiment?

[Vince Green]

Don't forget the fraud, prescription fraud is massive but never talked about. Other types of fraud is rife at every level plus plain old couldn't care less lazyness.

 

My friend and shooting buddy Greg was a consultant at a major North London hospital where they knew that they were treating lots of patients that were not entitled to free treatment. They had no accounts department to be able to charge them so it was just ignored and that was official from the top.

 

That to me is unforgivable, how can you blame people for coming here in droves to get free treatment when we are too lazy to bill them? When we do they don't pay apparently and nothing is done. Even tourists who have medical insurance, we don't claim the money back because nobody can be bothered.

 

No other healthcare organisation in the world would get away with that.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Vince Green

[paulnix]

Don't forget the fraud, prescription fraud is massive but never talked about. Other types of fraud is rife at every level plus plain old couldn't care less lazyness.

 

My friend and shooting buddy Greg was a consultant at a major North London hospital where they knew that they were treating lots of patients that were not entitled to free treatment. They had no accounts department to be able to charge them so it was just ignored and that was official from the top.

 

That to me is unforgivable, how can you blame people for coming here in droves to get free treatment when we are too lazy to bill them? When we do they don't pay apparently and nothing is done. Even tourists who have medical insurance, we don't claim the money back because nobody can be bothered.

 

No other healthcare organisation in the world would get away with that.

The NHS is massively inefficient in general as our most all of the public sector and the privatised utility ones are, problem is the people in management never had to run a company where efficiency matters so the only option they see is to cut funding or bring in yet more managers with the same qualifications ( ie not the right ones ) they need to bring in a warehouse managers to tell those on the wards about flow systems to get patients the right treatments in the right order, that alone will free up beds and cut costs.

My sister in law is a manager in the NHS so you hear plenty of stories but one sticks in my mind the most, her dept booked a seminar in a rather nice hotel maybe 15 miles from the hospital for consultants, managers and others to go to, £300 a head charged to the NHS by the hotel as they wanted 5 star treatment all day, drinks, food, spar, suna, fitness suite and swimming pool etc, with 20-25 people on it to discuss ways of saving money, you couldn't make it up, and to cap it all this was cancelled at the last minute as the roads were too icy for the hired in cars to take them.

She been given 2 kindles, smartphone, a laptop, several of those ipad/tablet things as well, magnify that attitude over all the NHS and you see how much they waste.

[Jaymo]

It would also be a lot cheaper if it was not full of anorexics, "sports" injuries, and cosmetic surgery failures caused by fashion trends.

Sports injuries happen- it's just the way it is if you don't sit in a bubble and do something

Cosmetic corrections are a minor contribution to Hospital stats/budget usage

Anorexia - I shall try and bite my lip as my sister died from organ failure attributed to years of malnutrition / anorexia. But this is a Mental disease, just like Depression that is often talked about on this very site, but I have not heard replies along the lines of-- don't go wasting tax payers cash seeing the Doctor, on sympathy and words of encouragement.

 

The NHS is flawed, I did indeed work in Health Finance wishing the NHS and there is an extraordinarily large amount of Chiefs to Indians and the accociates monetary waste- but this goes for ALL Government institutions.

Some of the things/ expenditure I saw would rile a Buddist Monk ( calm and tranquility etc).

However, our NHS is still streets ahead in terms of what it can and does provide to 'every citizen' when compared to what's on offer throughout the world

Working Globally as I do, I rather think we have come to expect as the Norm,what others can only dream of.

But also our 'What about me' self entitlement that has arisen in the last decade or so is becoming too much for the system to absorb.

[old man]

Some interesting points of view.

 

The NHS and Councils like all institutions are staffed by the same range of so called normal people?

This range encompasses the bone idle, greedy, vacuous, lying and cheating individuals as are in Government?

So, it will suffer from the same ills?

 

The NHS was set up to give basic health care to a relatively stable population, unlike that it is expected to service the needs of now?

The repid advances in prevention are not sustainable cost wise and on occasions it's like being stalked?

 

When the Private Medical cover some have fails for any reason, the method used to cover their backs is by calling 999 and getting rid of the problem they had?

 

It was born with us oldies and will go with us?

 

I'm afraid to say that the current dream of privatisation is working very well.

Virgin, Sodexa et al are all thriving using the less qualified and job seekers from society on minimum wage.

 

The PFI situation is crass stupidity beyond belief, more assets given away to be charged massive rents and maintenance cost in return for something we will never own?

What a supremely intelligent answer to a problem? It beggars belief?

 

what a wonderful situation we are in?

[old man]

Some interesting points of view.

 

The NHS and Councils like all institutions are staffed by the same range of so called normal people?

This range encompasses the bone idle, greedy, vacuous, lying, cheating individuals and a very few who care reflecting our Government?

So, it will suffer from the same ills?

 

The NHS was set up to give basic health care to a relatively stable population, unlike that it is expected to service the needs of now?

The repid advances in prevention are not sustainable cost wise and on occasions it's like being stalked?

 

When the Private Medical cover some have fails for any reason, the method used to cover their backs is by calling 999 and getting rid of the problem they had?

 

It was born with us oldies and will go with us?

 

Then you will need very deep pockets?

 

I'm afraid to say that the current dream of privatisation is working very well.

Virgin, Sodexa et al are all thriving using the less qualified and job seekers from society on minimum wage.

 

The PFI situation is crass stupidity beyond belief, more assets given away to be charged massive rents and maintenance cost in return for something we will never own?

What a supremely intelligent answer to a problem? It beggars belief?

 

what a wonderful situation we are in?

[AVB]

 

The PFI situation is crass stupidity beyond belief, more assets given away to be charged massive rents and maintenance cost in return for something we will never own?

What a supremely intelligent answer to a problem? It beggars belief?

 

 

 

As a concept I disagree that it is stupid. As a concept it is simple and logical. If you don't have the cash (capital) to fund large infrastructure projects then you use other sources of capital to build the infrastructure and you 'rent' it back. This concept is used across many institutions although only typically referred to as PFI when private capital funds public initiatives.

 

The problem comes when:

 

1) You don't get a good deal. i.e. the long term costs significantly outweigh the short term benefits. It will always appear to cost more in the long run but it shouldn't once you factor in the cost of capital, inflation etc. But they got the numbers wrong on a lot of them

2) you change you mind a lot. We all know that if you sign a contract and then change you mind a lot afterwards (Variation Orders, Change Requests etc.) then it costs you. A lot of the PFI's were plagued with this.

 

Did the UK PFI's deliver a good deal for the UK taxpayer? No. Should they have done? Yes.

[KFC]

 

As a concept I disagree that it is stupid. As a concept it is simple and logical. If you don't have the cash (capital) to fund large infrastructure projects then you use other sources of capital to build the infrastructure and you 'rent' it back. This concept is used across many institutions although only typically referred to as PFI when private capital funds public initiatives.

 

The problem comes when:

 

1) You don't get a good deal. i.e. the long term costs significantly outweigh the short term benefits. It will always appear to cost more in the long run but it shouldn't once you factor in the cost of capital, inflation etc. But they got the numbers wrong on a lot of them

2) you change you mind a lot. We all know that if you sign a contract and then change you mind a lot afterwards (Variation Orders, Change Requests etc.) then it costs you. A lot of the PFI's were plagued with this.

 

Did the UK PFI's deliver a good deal for the UK taxpayer? No. Should they have done? Yes.

and also when you want to use creative accounting to make it appear that the economy is better than it is for purely political reasons. PFI funding doesn't appear as debt on the nations' accounts. The fact that it costs double the interest, compared to normal borrowing is, apparently, a political price worth paying.

[panoma1]

and also when you want to use creative accounting to make it appear that the economy is better than it is for purely political reasons. PFI funding doesn't appear as debt on the nations' accounts. The fact that it costs double the interest, compared to normal borrowing is, apparently, a political price worth paying.

Same with the published unemployment figures!.........."Creative accounting"

 

 

 

"Lies, damn lies and statistics"

[Granett]

So two thirds of the patients were not white English. Or am I being racist for pointing out the *****y obvious ?

Yeah, you're being racist. Not for "pointing out the obvious" but for implying a black person is somehow less English that someone who is white.

[rodp]

Yeah, you're being racist. Not for "pointing out the obvious" but for implying a black person is somehow less English that someone who is white.

Ooh, you assumed I meant black because they're after something for nothing off our NHS, now who's being racist ? They could have been brown, yellow, or even a sort of beige colour, or they could have been white scottish

 

Either way, it's easy to see why the nhs can't cope, it's being bled dry by those who shouldn't be entitled to it.

[four-wheel-drive]

Yeah, you're being racist. Not for "pointing out the obvious" but for implying a black person is somehow less English that someone who is white.

I admit that I am racist and I would think that 90% of the people are racist to some degree I am shore that most people of whatever race or colour would prefer there children to marry someone like them being racist does not mean that I look down on people who are different to me or that I would ever do anything to harm them it is a fact of life that people in general prefer to be with people of there own race and culture.

[old man]

 

As a concept I disagree that it is stupid. As a concept it is simple and logical. If you don't have the cash (capital) to fund large infrastructure projects then you use other sources of capital to build the infrastructure and you 'rent' it back. This concept is used across many institutions although only typically referred to as PFI when private capital funds public initiatives.

 

The problem comes when:

 

1) You don't get a good deal. i.e. the long term costs significantly outweigh the short term benefits. It will always appear to cost more in the long run but it shouldn't once you factor in the cost of capital, inflation etc. But they got the numbers wrong on a lot of them

2) you change you mind a lot. We all know that if you sign a contract and then change you mind a lot afterwards (Variation Orders, Change Requests etc.) then it costs you. A lot of the PFI's were plagued with this.

 

Did the UK PFI's deliver a good deal for the UK taxpayer? No. Should they have done? Yes.

IMO, When the situation occurs that any organisation is able to profit from the public purse extreme vigilance is needed and sadly the people involved in the decisions rarely possess many relevant skills?

[vole]

Go private if you want nice food and handshakes off your surgeon. If you are ill and not just having a moob job,nhs all the way . Have worked in both. Working for a profit is not good in health care always.

[12gauge82]

Go private if you want nice food and handshakes off your surgeon. If you are ill and not just having a moob job,nhs all the way . Have worked in both. Working for a profit is not good in health care always.

Except if you need drugs which the NHS won't provide due to cost, or you have a critical condition and have to wait on a waiting list lowering the chances of your survival

[rjimmer]

How many of these comments are posted by people working in the public sector during working hours?

[AVB]

Go private if you want nice food and handshakes off your surgeon. If you are ill and not just having a moob job,nhs all the way . Have worked in both. Working for a profit is not good in health care always.

 

The consultants I know, who work in both NHS and private, all say - go private but do your research and pick the best consultant. Going private gives you that choice. Going NHS doesn't

[norfolk dumpling]

We are using rather a lot of the NHS at the moment and it amazes me how different the service is across the differing areas of expertise: my sons cancer (malignant melanoma) treatment has been poor here (better when we go to Cambridge) but my wife's experience of A&E was excellent and her elderly (94) dad too has had exemplary treatment. We often have to see the Plastics/Dematology consultant on a Saturday as he is busy with private patients during the week - this was the receptionist talking. If this is the case and we do know he does a lot of private work, as our taxes trained him and provide his basic salary should we not have our weekends disrupted of am I being unreasonable here??

[vole]

I don't get time to take a piddle during work never mind do this .

[vole]

Except if you need drugs which the NHS won't provide due to cost, or you have a critical condition and have to wait on a waiting list lowering the chances of your survival

Good point re the drugs but would be surprised if your everyday policy would fully cover mega expensive ones for long periods .

For REALLY critical stuff with big potential for complications I hear consultants who do both sectors advise nhs .Last time I transferred a patient to private care ,their ambulance was so ill equipped I went with him with our gear .It had a tv but not one you can monitor the ECG on . It was just a tv .NHS has rubbish food and demoralised staff but hugely more capable if it goes teats up .

[12gauge82]

Good point re the drugs but would be surprised if your everyday policy would fully cover mega expensive ones for long periods .

For REALLY critical stuff with big potential for complications I hear consultants who do both sectors advise nhs .Last time I transferred a patient to private care ,their ambulance was so ill equipped I went with him with our gear .It had a tv but not one you can monitor the ECG on . It was just a tv .NHS has rubbish food and demoralised staff but hugely more capable if it goes teats up .

I think the NHS is great and it's sad what's being done to it which is one reason I'm voting leave, my policy covers all known cancer drugs, top tier bupa cover for me and family

[vole]

I too am a Leaver . Just hoping to give the system a big shake up . You should not have to have money to be treated for certain conditions . Or be untreated if you have none .

[12gauge82]

I too am a Leaver . Just hoping to give the system a big shake up . You should not have to have money to be treated for certain conditions . Or be untreated if you have none .

Spot on, couldn't agree more, also does my conscious no good and if it weren't for having a family i probably wouldn't bother with private cover, those drugs and consultants should be available to all equally.

[keg]

Agreed but do you give priority to say, children's medcine, cancer, MS? In an ideal world, there would be enough to go round but i don't think that has ever been the case in recent years.

[old man]

To be fair the NHS was set up to provide a basic health care for all at point of delivery in a much less technological age when probably most sick customers were grateful of any intervention?

[oowee]

To my mind the NHS cannot work long term how ever efficient it becomes new treatments and prolonged life expectancy will exponentially price the total available treatments out of affordability. Ultimately it must have some rationing (as has started in the service) element to it as we cant afford all of the new treatments. Topping up for those that can afford it with insurance, but even this is likely to become unaffordable for post working life. Politically this is an unelectable position as we mostly feel we should all have access to all of the treatments available.