Missed it again Posted June 15, 2016 Report Share Posted June 15, 2016 Good Evening all, Have been reading this site for a while now, lots of good info and interesting discussion. After recently taking a few Clay shooting lessons I'm hooked, and I think that shooting may become a lifelong pursuit - what better way to combine my love for the great outdoors with my appreciation for all things shiny and precision engineering. I decided that it was worth getting the ball rolling with a SGC application, and gave my local FAO a call to ask whether it was worth stating a short bout of depression 6 years ago on the form. (Short story - was doing voluntary work in Canada, got pneumonia and couldn't carry on, plus homesickness, ended up seeing a doctor in Canada who diagnosed depression. Came home, no further treatment, no more issues.) FAO agreed it was best to include on the form. After submitting application, no surprises when a letter came through from police licensing unit asking for my GP to provide a medical report. No problem I thought, no record of depression or any other issues on the system. Went to see the doctor today, he agreed there was no issue. Great! Or so I thought... He then opened up an email he had recieved from the local NHS trust and showed me the letter template he had been told to use in any request for medical reports relating to SGC/FAC, which basically states that he is not qualified to provide an assessment of mental health and cannot provide any further information! (He also suggested at this point that I should have just kept quiet about the depression on the form in the first place!) Anyone had any similar experiences? My plan is to contact my FAO at the earliest opportunity to discuss. Thanks for any advice. (PS. I'm sure that some may suggest that it may have been better to keep quiet on the form in the first place, but in my mind this was not an option, I wouldn't have been comfortable with that at all, even if ultimately it means no SGC) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoot and be safe Posted June 15, 2016 Report Share Posted June 15, 2016 The letter you talk of is becoming a standard reply nowadays. You will probably find that the firearms department will write to you requesting a copy of your medical records (chances are that you will have to pay for the copy) so that their own medical professionals can assess your suitably (medical) to be granted a SGC. Don't give up hope, all is not lost. Although it may take a little longer to get your ticket. All the best SABS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 It's better the template has come from the NHS trust and not the police! I wouldn't worry too much as all your GP can do anyway is state what is written in your medical history; he can't be expected to comment, but merely write down what is written on your medical report. He can offer an opinion on your state of mind in the present tense but how GPs are supposed to base any opinion ( which they aren't supposed to be doing anyhow ) on something they didn't treat a patient for is beyond me. All your GP needs to do is submit what is on your report that is relevant to your application, which in this case is nothing, so why can't he simply state that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonthebrit Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 A bit of backside covering going on I think. It'll just be a speed bump to the cert. I would have also declared it so in my opinion you did the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missed it again Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Thanks for the responses, glad to hear it's nothing new. I agree that me sitting in front of the GP for 10 minutes gives him no opportunity to determine whether I'm of sound mind or completely loopy, so it's a difficult position for him to be in. My issue was that, as I understand, he will be sending this letter instead of making a statement of my medical history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 If you go here : https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2016/03/Firearms-licensing-medical-process-fact-sheet.pdf There is a part on page 3 regarding if you GP does not wish to provide a report, and that applicants 'should not be disadvantaged' if that is the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Just my opinion. And FWIW? you did exactly the right thing to declare it. Had it come to light later you could have been declared an unfit person to possess? If you are not a member of a Shooting Organisation please join one for the insurance and future back up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) BY the grace of god i am not a charecter who gets depressed very easy, not a lot phases me ever. But i will say i think the curent line of thinking re depression etc in gun legislation is flawed and in fact i think its got a fair chance of acctualy causing a person who is depressed or has some dissorder perhaps, that could with medical help be sorted out with no issues to anyone, but in this curent legislation such a gun owner might avoid going to seek medical help for fear of the problems it might have re gun licence. I hope i am wrong but there could well be a ticking time bomb right now, which with a more ballanced approach from the authorities could be avoided. I think its time the police had the gun licencing taken out of their hands and it put into private hands as BASC Sujested as a possible option not so long ago, at the time i was uncertain what was for the best, but now i feel is the right time for this. And might go some way to having a more ballance attitude to applicants than the current system offers. . Edited June 16, 2016 by TONY R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Just to say : also agree with 'old man'. You did the right thing in declaring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 BY the grace of god i am not a charecter who gets depressed very easy, not a lot phases me ever. But i will say i think the curent line of thinking re depression etc in gun legislation is flawed and in fact i think its got a fair chance of acctualy causing a person who is depressed or has some dissorder perhaps, that could with medical help be sorted out with no issues to anyone, but in this curent legislation such a gun owner might avoid going to seek medical help for fear of the problems it might have re gun licence. I hope i am wrong but there could well be a ticking time bomb right now, which with a more ballanced approach from the authorities could be avoided. When you read posts on here people are concerned about blood pressure various drugs for conditions unrelated to drugs, its all getting a bit complicated i think, and if they focussed more on the acctual shooters charecter and home and lifestyle it might be time better spent. Your totally right on this one, I have a friend who does a lot with mental health issues in the rural community, she herself had a bout of depression for no reason only that ( not clinically proven) she had been in contact with a certain sheep dip that year. She feels that many who could benefit from a visit to the doctor don't because they are worried that this might take away their shooting, a pastime that is often the only escape from the rest of the hum drum. So they go untreated and when it gets all to much and no other way out become suicidal and have the tools for this. It is a real difficult one as you could say that its best for anyone slightly depressed not to have a license but is it fair to take something away that could help or cure. The police are well known for acting heavy handily when the slightest sniff of depression is in the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Depression is not technically a medical condition, its a label. Any diagnosis cannot be confirmed by other means. It is a catch all word to describe a mood. There can (most definitely) be serious issues but just the use of the word doesn't imply that there are. I get depressed every Monday morning, or when I get my credit card bill. That not the same as being suicidal, unable to get out of bed or stop crying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 The problem here as been right from Ryan through hamilton bird and atherton all basicaly for want of a better term WRONG UNS. The police missed the mark with these people its that simple the 1968 act gave them all the powers they needed to deal with these individuals. But In various levels of errors they all ended up comiting these killings, which are the key ones the legislation we have right now is implimented to try and combat. Police had the powers back in 1987 the changes have solved nothing just effectively chastised to various degrees law abiding responsible gun owners here. For me it needs a re think Seperate organisation not the police with laws looking at the gun owner not this over blown importance of this gun this capacity this call this that and the other. Its over complicated and protects no one, a chest shot from a .22250 at 100 yards will kill a person just the same as a 338 lapua dead is dead your either fit to have a gun or not period the guns are pretty unimportant in acctual fact. the new Zealanders have a few different catagories of firearm and even include some for automatic rifles etc. But even with their gang cullture over there the various motorcycle clubs and mongrel mob black power etc, gun killings are not that common a blunt instrument is the tool of many gangla nd murders there. A practical streamlined gun legislation here similar to the NZ one with emphasis more in the shooter than the gun is in my opinbion a better option for everyone including the general public which these laws here are suposed to protect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 The problem here as been right from Ryan through hamilton bird and atherton all basicaly for want of a better term WRONG UNS. The police missed the mark with these people its that simple the 1968 act gave them all the powers they needed to deal with these individuals. But In various levels of errors they all ended up comiting these killings, which are the key ones the legislation we have right now is implimented to try and combat. Police had the powers back in 1987 the changes have solved nothing just effectively chastised to various degrees law abiding responsible gun owners here. For me it needs a re think Seperate organisation not the police with laws looking at the gun owner not this over blown importance of this gun this capacity this call this that and the other. Its over complicated and protects no one, a chest shot from a .22250 at 100 yards will kill a person just the same as a 338 lapua dead is dead your either fit to have a gun or not period the guns are pretty unimportant in acctual fact. the new Zealanders have a few different catagories of firearm and even include some for automatic rifles etc. But even with their gang cullture over there the various motorcycle clubs and mongrel mob black power etc, gun killings are not that common a blunt instrument is the tool of many gangla nd murders there. A practical streamlined gun legislation here similar to the NZ one with emphasis more in the shooter than the gun is in my opinbion a better option for everyone including the general public which these laws here are suposed to protect. Maybe more emphasis on character witness then rather than doctors reports, depression usually ends in suicide, hanging is the more popular method anyway. I think we all know someone who should have never been granted a license, just by luck of not being convicted or just sheer bullying has slipped through the net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missed it again Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 If you go here : https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2016/03/Firearms-licensing-medical-process-fact-sheet.pdf There is a part on page 3 regarding if you GP does not wish to provide a report, and that applicants 'should not be disadvantaged' if that is the case. Thanks for the link. Just my opinion. And FWIW? you did exactly the right thing to declare it. Had it come to light later you could have been declared an unfit person to possess? If you are not a member of a Shooting Organisation please join one for the insurance and future back up? I have been planning to join BASC, but assumed that joining once SGC was granted would be the most sensible thing to do. I'll have a look into it and reconsider, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 It shouldn't be for GPs to say whether you are fit or unfit to hold fireaarms. They should simply give the facts of any medical condition that may or may not be relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 If there is nothing to report then I don't understand why your GP can't simply state ,'nothing to report'. How hard can that be? As an aside regarding declaring such a condition; yes, I'd have to agree, you did the right thing. I was advised by my organisation at the time, not to declare the fact I'd been prescribed beta blockers for anxiety attacks. I had my doubts about this, but was assured it was a common ailment and one which many people suffered from and not worth bothering about. I didn't declare it, as advised, but five years later at the following renewal, I couldn't bring myself to omit it when faced with the relevant question on the application and phoned my FEO and asked him to call round. He did so; we had a chat, and it's never been an issue since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) The problem with really high risk individuals is they often give no external warning signs. My friend's brother Brian seemed fine, had no issues at home or work and was financially OK. He got up one morning, kissed his beautiful new wife goodbye got in his car and went to work. At work he seemed normal, joking and engaged in all the usual office interaction. At lunchtime he went out and jumped off a road bridge over the motorway. That was 35 years ago now. He was hit by six cars as he lay on the carriageway. The driver of one of the cars had PTS, nightmares and couldn't work, He lost his job and his house. Strangely, he and my friend Pete are still in touch, Pete I think feels guilty about what happened to him. Nobody then or now knows why, the police family liason people said its not that unusual. Nobody, his wife, family, friends and work colleagues saw anything amiss and believe me they racked their brains trying. It tore the heart out of his family, his dad died of a heart attack three years later and his mum was shell of her former self, popping pills till she 'accidentally' overdosed on sleeping tablets. Brian's story often comes back to me when you hear about young lads running off to join IS or whatever. Their families often claim to be totally shocked because they had no idea, and I really believe they did not.. The point I am making is that getting doctors reports will not identify the real nutcases but will just heap more grief on unfortunate individuals who have had to cope with tough things in their life but have dealt with it. Edited June 16, 2016 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 With the new system we'll have a few issues but hopefully it will start to work. As to declaring it you had to if you didn't you'd have been dishonest and IMHO not deserving a SGC. You did the right thing not the easy thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpredder Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 ...getting doctors reports will not identify the real nutcases but will just heap more grief on unfortunate individuals who have had to cope with tough things in their life.Somebody who fears he might be going mad is probably not insane at all, and entirely harmless. The ones to worry about are those who are absolutely certain that they are sane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Somebody who fears he might be going mad is probably not insane at all, and entirely harmless. The ones to worry about are those who are absolutely certain that they are sane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 What worries me is,will this constand publicity of medicals ect make current FAC/SGC holders avoid visiting the doctors.What im trying to say is,will it make cert holders go underground as far a comming forward about underlying medical conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Thankfully this only applies in England and Wales not in this part of the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) Durham the force that 1st implemented these forms to try and deflect the bad publisity the Atherton killings gave them.Need to just hold their hands up and admit they are not capable of running licencing.Stop using the pittyful excuse of being understaffed,the truth is they have the staff,but not the right staff.For god sake,two of the muppets when questioned at the Atherton tribunal where asked "had they a clear understanding of the home office quidance",they replied "what guidance" I have zero confidence in them,god knows what the public would make of it & it seems that other authorities are no better. Edited June 16, 2016 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Agreed, the whole system is flawed, but can anyone think of a better way of doing it? I do think they are trying very hard to get it right but nobody is perfect. Its not a job I would want to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) Easy, run it central and let the area Feo's do the visits ect while central do all the other background check ect.Feo's do it in ABC format not the hap-hazzard BCA as it is now.Feo's only need to go out to do F2F once central have done all checks and are happy with your background.Put the fee up by all means but lets have a propper service.How many times on here we hear PW members saying FEO was out within a week of the application going in.The Feo saying yes everthing will be ok,but they then wait 8mths for the licence.Bit of a back to front nobody has a clue what they are doing set up to me.Everybody keeps going on about a 10yr licence lol.Not in a million year under the current system (too many idiots will slip through the net). If we want a good system then we will need to pay a fair price.If your passionate about shooting then within reason we shouldnt object to an increase.For god sake fishermen have to pay £27 for a year and if they want to dip more than two rods its another £27. If nothing is done soon i think we can kiss goodbye to our guns because under the current system its a seriously miss managed mess. Edited June 17, 2016 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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