7.5 for pigeon.....

[the hitman]

Yes I use Trust 28g 7.5 cracking shell kills pigeons over decoys, and beyond.

[itchy trigger]

I do use Cheddite Universal Trap, its a 28 gram, fibre wad, 7.5 (2.4mm), use it through 1/4 choke, over decoys or flighting, had some amazing kills, they do the job as long as I do my bit

[hedge hunter]

Litrally just in from a days decoying using Eley ct twentys 7.5 of 24g out of my 20g yildz. Never used this load before always no6 28g, but these are what I had knocking about so went with it. Must say they worked a treat & will definitely be using them again on the pigeons.

[the crowman]

everyone has there own take on this but for me 71/2 are not man enough for pigeon or crows unless close in, i only use that size for clays.

What a load of tosh.I can shoot crow or pigeon and kill them in the air at 40yrds no problem.

 

Full choke is the key 👍👍👍

Edited August 5, 2016 by the crowman

[TONY R]

28 gram 7.5s is fine, for pigeons and crows, if you clip a bird with the edge of the pattern it can get away wounded no matter what shot size you ru n, they got to be hit right with a decent pattern.

Edited August 5, 2016 by TONY R

[johnnytheboy]

European 7.5 = 2.4mm

English 7.5 = 2.3mm

 

Just a thought!

[bazzab]

Well...

 

 

 

I went for a few hours today. I had some no6 with me but tried the 7.5s very impressed.

 

Only had to give 1 a 2nd barrel. The rest dead before landing. Including 2 crows. Kept my ranges sensible. Very impressed.

 

 

Thank you all for your input. Turned into a very interesting thread.

[wymberley]

.85 lbs kinetic energy per pellet .

 

There is literally no way you could measure and quantify this rubbish TODAY how they managed it 60 years ago is anyones guess.

One of the advantages of the introduction of non toxic shot was that in order to compare its performance with lead, it was realised that further studies on the latter material were necessary. Many thousands of rounds were fired in the USA under stringent conditions which reflected that the old boys weren't far off. Have a look at the final report submitted by the UK Ballistic Research Laboratory on external ballistics. The one thing all this work did throw up was something we missed historically in the UK (unless one read Fusils de Chasse by Journee which was published c1900) which is the fact that shotgun patterns conform to Gauss. They also conforms to the theory of probability.

Edited August 5, 2016 by wymberley

[Terry2016]

yes, if birds are decoying well and out to about to 50 yards give or take Gamebore Dark Storm 28g 7.5s, they drop pigeons nicely

[bazzab]

I tried to stay 45ish at very max. Dropped them well.

 

 

Only reason I had to 2nd barrel one was my fault not the carts.

[Guest stevo]

I'm rather taken at the moment with 21 gram 7.5s

[Milo]

I'm rather taken at the moment with 21 gram 7.5s

 

21g #7.5 average pellet count is around 284

 

32g #5 average pellet count around 226.

 

Dense pattern, negligible recoil. Lovely.

[Hamster]

I did a scientific study a couple days ago using FAC .22 - shot 2 pigeon at 40 and 50 yards :

 

Pigeon one was hit just below the top of the body and pellet exited the top of the breast the other side, it had expired in less than the minute that it took to retrieve it.

 

Pigeon two had the joint of its wing smashed causing severe trauma and loss of blood, the pellet then entering the top of the breast and exiting through the crop close to the neck. Had I seen this bird dressed I would not have hesitated in assuming it had died instantly since the pellet must have passed very close to the heart and other vital organs. When reaching the spot I quickly found lots of blood in the standing corn but gave up after a few minutes and started walking back towards the gap in the fence I had climbed through. I was extremely lucky to bump into the very much alive and walking bird by noticing its heavy movements through the edges of the standing wheat.

 

Both pellets must have been doing 25 ft lbs plus easily and both must have caused damage to (similar) vital organs ! Heart and gizzard of both retrieved and cleaned with no sign of damage.

 

In terms of camouflage I was wearing brogues, French Connection jeans, white shirt and a camo pattern hat and I hid under a low tree making good use of the tallish grass around me. My conclusion is that this combination confuses the birds eyesight since blue and white seem to clash so severely in bird world that it actually causes them to discount it as a mere illusion. I shall be doing one or two similar tests and if things work out well will be publishing a detailed book with my new found assumptions, in time they will become known as facts.

[Wilksy II]

I use them! I started out using them I tried using 30g 6's but I've gone back to 7.5 28g I'm on lyvale English sporter at the mo as they were £142.00 a thou in fibre! That said I do like hull's superfast 29g 6's I'll be getting some for walked up partridge next month!

[rbrowning2]

. I shall be doing one or two similar tests and if things work out well will be publishing a detailed book with my new found assumptions, in time they will become known as facts.

 

Well good luck with that one but I think I will stick with the likes of,

 

https://sportinglibrary.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/sporting-authors-sir-gerald-burrard/

 

https://sportinglibrary.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/the-modern-shotgun-v-1-2-3-g-burrard/

 

And others that have contributed the the internal and external ballistics after all not lot has changed for shot gun cartridges, same round little ball leaves the barrel.

Edited August 6, 2016 by rbrowning2

[chris1961]

I personally wouldn't go the 7.5 rout but plenty do if kills are clean then why not a lot of people find financial viable to use 7.5 because of money constraints i.e. skint I personally am number 6 man but who are we to judge others

[Guest stevo]

I personally wouldn't go the 7.5 rout but plenty do if kills are clean then why not a lot of people find financial viable to use 7.5 because of money constraints i.e. skint I personally am number 6 man but who are we to judge others

I pay more for my clay/comp carts than most do for game shells.

[Hamster]

Well good luck with that one but I think I will stick with the likes of,

 

https://sportinglibrary.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/sporting-authors-sir-gerald-burrard/

 

https://sportinglibrary.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/the-modern-shotgun-v-1-2-3-g-burrard/

 

And others that have contributed the the internal and external ballistics after all not lot has changed for shot gun cartridges, same round little ball leaves the barrel.

 

Not sure what their birth and death dates or where they were born has to do with it, nor how many volumes they wrote but if you were to do a meaningful test on birds today that try and come to a conclusion as to how many pellets and at what kinetic poundage are required for a kill, you would need to devise a mile long list of requirements.

 

First we need to shoot a thousand pigeon (remember these would need to be species specific or they'd be suppositions), then we need to pick a specific shot size, (do we pick 6, 6.5 or 7's ?), then we need to collect and categorize the slain under lab conditions and strict descriptions of time taken to expire (or not), then we need to count the number of pellets in each dressed body and collate separately, then we need qualified vets or similar official to individually appraise each against the description of the range and body posture at the time it was shot versus the time it took to expire (or not). We also need to arrive at what constitutes "vital organs", as my previous scientific experiment showed, a pellet doing 25 ft lbs through the body and which demonstrably hit liver and other organs can produce vastly different results. Only a qualified expert can ascertain exactly why the results varied so much.

 

We then need a few ballistics experts to view, appraise, collate and categorize each bird in tandem with the vets to produce a graph to signify any statistically valid patterns as to the significance of the kinetic ft lbs of energy said bird is known to have received.

 

A life time of shooting pigeon with air guns and shot guns has shown me beyond reasonable doubt that conclusions drawn from what kills what how quickly at what angle with what shot size and how many strikes are all but meaningless, real life just ain't like that. To write down something as emphatic as 3 pellets at 1.2 ft lbs each for a rabbit hit in vital organs or .9 ft lbs for a pigeon is frankly laughable nonsense. I am perfectly aware people need to hero worship writers of years gone by but you need only glance at some of the rubbish modern experts write to know things weren't that different before.

 

In conclusion, without scientifically valid and repeatable data graphs are just suppositions.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Hamster

[Milo]

Hi all

 

 

I don't want a huge debate over what's right and what's not... so my question isn't for people's opinions on should we....

 

 

Does anyone use 7.5 28gram carts on pigeons? If so which ones and do you tend to keep ranges down?

 

 

Just been sat thinking.....

 

Many thanks.

[wymberley]

 

Not sure what their birth and death dates or where they were born has to do with it, nor how many volumes they wrote but if you were to do a meaningful test on birds today that try and come to a conclusion as to how many pellets and at what kinetic poundage are required for a kill, you would need to devise a mile long list of requirements.

 

First we need to shoot a thousand pigeon (remember these would need to be species specific or they'd be suppositions), then we need to pick a specific shot size, (do we pick 6, 6.5 or 7's ?), then we need to collect and categorize the slain under lab conditions and strict descriptions of time taken to expire (or not), then we need to count the number of pellets in each dressed body and collate separately, then we need qualified vets or similar official to individually appraise each against the description of the range and body posture at the time it was shot versus the time it took to expire (or not). We also need to arrive at what constitutes "vital organs", as my previous scientific experiment showed, a pellet doing 25 ft lbs through the body and which demonstrably hit liver and other organs can produce vastly different results. Only a qualified expert can ascertain exactly why the results varied so much.

 

We then need a few ballistics experts to view, appraise, collate and categorize each bird in tandem with the vets to produce a graph to signify any statistically valid patterns as to the significance of the kinetic ft lbs of energy said bird is known to have received.

 

A life time of shooting pigeon with air guns and shot guns has shown me beyond reasonable doubt that conclusions drawn from what kills what how quickly at what angle with what shot size and how many strikes are all but meaningless, real life just ain't like that. To write down something as emphatic as 3 pellets at 1.2 ft lbs each for a rabbit hit in vital organs or .9 ft lbs for a pigeon is frankly laughable nonsense. I am perfectly aware people need to hero worship writers of years gone by but you need only glance at some of the rubbish modern experts write to know things weren't that different before.

 

In conclusion, without scientifically valid and repeatable data graphs are just suppositions.

All perfectly valid. However, when you started off, did you begin knowing nothing -so why did you choose that gun, pellet, cartridge? Or did you have some idea of what might be what that could be used as a guideline. If so, what was its source? Surely, it's not beyond the wit of man to understand that when writing on the subject the author has to give an indication of what point he is making and the only way to do this is to provide figures, tables, graphs or whatever. The intention being that they're not set in stone but simply provide a guidline which his reader can use and work around until such time as he finds out what suits him best.

[rbrowning2]

Hamster, you said

 

When I first started shotgunning I read everything I could get my hands on, same with ferrets, pigeon, clays, you name it.

 

So have you actually read any of his books? If not keep an open mind and buy a copy on the cartridge.

Then send some cartridges to the proof house and apply the results to what in the book and exfrapalate the results to different distances for velocity you may be surprised just how close the the tables in the book work out to be even tables that old.

This is possible down to fact that the siience behind exterior ballistics of a ball has been studied since the days of the first cannon.

 

Yes some bits of the book may generalise like 3 or 4 pellets at a certain foot-pound but then we do the same now with modern science today do we not?

[JDog]

Other than religion, Tony Blair and class this topic always gives rise to heated debate.

 

My own experience is limited as I have never used anything other than no. 6 shot. However I can see the obvious advantages of using no. 7.5, the number of pellets in the pattern being the obvious one.

[TONY R]

The op mentioned 28 gram 7.5s pigeons. Now without argiuing euro american british shot sizes , and just looking at 6s at 270 eng to 291 to the oz and 7.5s at around 340 350 to 400 to the oz thats a lot more pellets in any language.

Up to most ranges you generaly shoot pidgeons at 7.5s in an oz will do just fine.

If your shooting them high over some high ground over some trees on a flightline for example you might need to look to a bigger shot size or even a bigger l,oad, but this is more the extreme case scenario than general pigeon shooting for most people or sittuations.

now with a 32 gram load i might be tempted to run 6s the increased payload bumps up the pellet count nicely in a 6 shot load, but this is not what the OP asked for, 28 gram and 7.5s is ideal and i use this shot size in this weight load .

 

7.5s are not down on ft lbs of energy accumulative on target even to 45 and some yards anyone who has a KPY programe run the numbers please? And add to the fact they got the energy the pattern plate has more than a decent chance of a more even pattern with less little pigeon size voids in it than a 28 gram load of 6s has. pewllets kill not patterns but patterns are the key to the pellets killing you have to have one with the other, the 28 gram 7.5s have the odds stacked firmly in favour of acchieving whats required for clean humane kills on pigeons in a 28 gram load at apropriate ranges that cant be questioned.

Edited August 6, 2016 by TONY R

[dipper]

Someone who has no confidence in trap cartridges needs to watch Stevos videos Dipper

[Milo]

Someone who has no confidence in trap cartridges needs to watch Stevos videos Dipper

 

For example - 21gm 7.5 shot. More pellets than 30gm 6 shot and clearly enough energy to get the job done.