N. Wales, Fox, HMR

[Dekers]

Hi Everyone,

 

Does anyone here have a HMR on their FAC conditioned for Fox and issued by N Wales?

 

Following that, does anyone have a HMR issued by N Wales conditioned ALQ or indeed Vermin.

 

I understand that N Wales are not keen on HMR for fox but I would be curious to find someone who has one so conditioned, following a debate elseware.

 

Cheers

Edited September 5, 2016 by Dekers

[Benthejockey]

I had HMR/fox on my ticket with dyfed Powys as my very first rifle. And AOLQ. He said there's better calibres for the job but it'll kill foxes just don't get carried away with the range. All my guns from the .22 up are AOLQ. The 243 is specifically deer, fox and AOLQ.

[WelshMike]

I had HMR/fox on my ticket with dyfed Powys as my very first rifle. And AOLQ. He said there's better calibres for the job but it'll kill foxes just don't get carried away with the range. All my guns from the .22 up are AOLQ. The 243 is specifically deer, fox and AOLQ.

+ 1 though unfortunately I cant comment about North Wales Police which doesnt help. I will try and ask a mate of mine as he knows a couple of lads from N Wales. If I get a sensible response I ll let you know.

[Dekers]

Cheers guys, appreciate the response!

 

[Thegogg]

I was turned down when I asked to have fox added to my FAC against my 17HMR so I had to put in for 223.........they also wouldn't allow 204 for fox until I questioned it and they relented. I don't have AOLQ on the 204 just "destruction of fox".

[WelshMike]

I was turned down when I asked to have fox added to my FAC against my 17HMR so I had to put in for 223.........they also wouldn't allow 204 for fox until I questioned it and they relented. I don't have AOLQ on the 204 just "destruction of fox".

Nice to see this stupidity cropping up again. I cant believe the forces are so different and so out of touch with reality. Given that a .204 is pretty well a dedicated foxing round and also that in effect you cant shoot a rabbit with your .204 as you dont have AOLQ is insane.

 

With a .17 HMR at sensible ranges and with correct shot placement the fox will be dead. At least Dyfed Powys see sense with this.

[Benthejockey]

204 is basically a specialised fox round! I'm thinking I will put a variation in for one as a dedicated night vision set up (that's good reason isn't it?!) when I have to do a renewal next year. Knowing what I know now id probably have gone straight for a 204 because it looks a sexier little round but I do love my HMR it's a fun gun to shoot although it doesn't get used so much any more because I'm lacking rabbits! There's no reason why they shouldn't allow HMR for fox and it falls within home office guidelines! If you're sensible enough to have a FAC then you should be trusted to use a suitable calibre at a suitable range on suitable quarry!

[CharlieT]

204 is basically a specialised fox round! I'm thinking I will put a variation in for one as a dedicated night vision set up (that's good reason isn't it?!) when I have to do a renewal next year. Knowing what I know now id probably have gone straight for a 204 because it looks a sexier little round but I do love my HMR it's a fun gun to shoot although it doesn't get used so much any more because I'm lacking rabbits! There's no reason why they shouldn't allow HMR for fox and it falls within home office guidelines! If you're sensible enough to have a FAC then you should be trusted to use a suitable calibre at a suitable range on suitable quarry!

Which is exactly what the Guidance says, shame some police forces don't read it,

[Whitebridges]

Just a personal view....I think the police look at the person, experience, ground they are shooting on, etc etc. Yes, they should follow the home office guidance but they don't have to do this. I like the fact that their objective has to be public safety.

If they wish to be difficult, obtuse call it what you will, this is their business. At the end of the day the issue of trust will end with an open ticket. In my experience ( in Norfolk) the regime is tough, fair and they do not relent to idiots irrespective of the guidance on offer. At the end of the day the firearms teams are there to implement the law of the land to the best of their ability and as resources allow. Sometimes I wish some people would show a bit more respect.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Whitebridges

[Walker570]

I believe this comes from the Home Office advisors not necessarily the police. I believe they have now said to allow the 17HMR and the 204 for fox control. A polite reminder should you have a problem might work because as we all know each force Chief Constable has his own ideas. I know in Leicestershire both are now accepted.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Walker570

[Whitebridges]

I wouldn't expect a Chief Constable to have detailed understanding of Firearms legislation. The process is ( as I understand it ) is he either approves or declines. So believe it or not the Firearms team make a recommendation to him.

 

Given the process and where there are issues / unanswered questions would a FAO make a positive recommendation to the CC?

 

BTW I have shot fox with both .17HMR and .204 Ruger for a number of years because I am allowed to do so in accordance with the law of the land and the detail on my firearms certificate.

 

The gun calibre issue has to be hokum where other questions need better answers.

[Dekers]

Thanks everyone, I take it MANY people in North Wales have VERMIN listed on their FAC and/or AOLQ, on the basis that the Home Office in their latest Firearms guide to the Police make it clear they consider fox to be vermin, then may I suggest you don't need FOX specifically listed on your FAC, and if you have AOLQ then you obviously don't!

 

"13.19 ................................................

The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause
damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,
brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds.................."

 

[robbiep]

I enquired about HMR a while ago, whilst considering a variation. The FEO asked what it would be for, and I explained it would be for fox and rabbits up on the hills. I explained that my reasoning was that the 22LR isn't really powerful enough for fox, and the 223 is overkill (not to mention very expensive) on rabbits.

 

The FEO was not keen, and the idea got shelved.

[Thegogg]

Just a personal view....I think the police look at the person, experience, ground they are shooting on, etc etc. Yes, they should follow the home office guidance but they don't have to do this. I like the fact that their objective has to be public safety.

If they wish to be difficult, obtuse call it what you will, this is their business. At the end of the day the issue of trust will end with an open ticket. In my experience ( in Norfolk) the regime is tough, fair and they do not relent to idiots irrespective of the guidance on offer. At the end of the day the firearms teams are there to implement the law of the land to the best of their ability and as resources allow. Sometimes I wish some people would show a bit more respect.

 

Sorry but I can't agree with you.........North Wales don't look at the person, experience, ground etc. they just won't allow 17HMR for fox, end of.

 

You say as well that if it was a trust issue then it would end with an open ticket...........well I've already got an open ticket but I still can't shoot fox with my 17HMR.

[Scully]

Thanks everyone, I take it MANY people in North Wales have VERMIN listed on their FAC and/or AOLQ, on the basis that the Home Office in their latest Firearms guide to the Police make it clear they consider fox to be vermin, then may I suggest you don't need FOX specifically listed on your FAC, and if you have AOLQ then you obviously don't!

 

"13.19 ................................................

The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause

damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,

brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds.................."

 

 

This ^

[welshwarrior]

 

Sorry but I can't agree with you.........North Wales don't look at the person, experience, ground etc. they just won't allow 17HMR for fox, end of.

 

You say as well that if it was a trust issue then it would end with an open ticket...........well I've already got an open ticket but I still can't shoot fox with my 17HMR.

+1 I moved to N Wales with and open ticket and fox list against my hmr, they refused to allow it when the change of address happened. I'd moved 5 miles from Cheshire and was still wanting to use the HMR in Cheshire. The foxes hadn't change the location hadn't change just my postcode now made it dangerous madness. This was a few years ago now but I believe they are still as dogged that HMRs aren't allowed for fox.

[Walker570]

Check this out thoroughly because I am pretty certain from information I have recently heard, that some FEOs are making their own rules when the Home Office have climbed down and allowed both the 17HMR and the 204. They also had to accept that a 45-70 will kill deer. When I had my 17HMR it was cleared for any vermin 'vermin control'

My certificate specifies 'vermin' present day no mention of fox.

Initially I was told that my 375JDJ could not be used for deer in the UK but as I only use it overseas this was not a problem. My 8mm (.320) is accepted. Now I learn that as long as the ground is passed for 375 calibre then I can, but some of the numpties going round checking ground don't even shoot. The whole system is a shambles and in my view should be run Nationally, like your driving license and not through individual police forces.

Ask yourself, how many people were killed yesterday by a car ..... how many killed in the last ten years by a LEGALLY HELD firearm ... but a driver can pass his/her test today and go into a store tomorrow and buy a Ferrari.

[Tedly47]

It's not the Flo's in north Wales making the decision for HMR on fox it's the head of licensing. I know him personally and asked him why and he couldn't give me a good answer! I take it he's had bad advice somewhere down the line as we all know HMR on a fox in the right conditions and distance is more than ample...

 

I was told I needed something bigger for fox so I got a .222 however I've still got vermin on my licence for my HMR and it doesn't say "not including fox"

 

Tedly

[robbiep]

Thanks everyone, I take it MANY people in North Wales have VERMIN listed on their FAC and/or AOLQ, on the basis that the Home Office in their latest Firearms guide to the Police make it clear they consider fox to be vermin, then may I suggest you don't need FOX specifically listed on your FAC, and if you have AOLQ then you obviously don't!

 

"13.19 ................................................

The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause

damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,

brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds.................."

 

 

Just a little note : Dekers has highlighted one part, I've highlighted another part (in red).

 

'May include', not ''does include'', or 'will include'. But 'may'. Same as 'might include'.

 

So there is no hard and fast rule.

Of course, unless your FAC for vermin control specifically excludes fox, then you could certainly take the shot. Just as the handbook section for 22LR and fox, it comes down to operator choice.

[Dekers]

 

Just a little note : Dekers has highlighted one part, I've highlighted another part (in red).

 

'May include', not ''does include'', or 'will include'. But 'may'. Same as 'might include'.

 

So there is no hard and fast rule.

Of course, unless your FAC for vermin control specifically excludes fox, then you could certainly take the shot. Just as the handbook section for 22LR and fox, it comes down to operator choice.

 

No argument with that except it is the best reference any shooter has, and the HO also clearly state HMR suitable for Fox!

 

Cheers

[robbiep]

 

No argument with that except it is the best reference any shooter has, and the HO also clearly state HMR suitable for Fox!

 

Cheers

 

Oh, agreed entirely. When the handbook quite clearly states that 22LR can be suitable, in experienced hands and at short ranges, but the dept won't allow HMR, then it really is a bit ridiculous.

 

Especially when you read 13.25 of the Licencing handbook ...

 

13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available.

 

That's the problem that we've always had though. Inconsistency and FEOs / managers making up their own interpretation.

What we really need is the 'guidance' being phrased a lot more clearly. (here's hoping when the next review comes out)

And then, when some depts go against it, a judicial review forced by an organisation with the balls to back it up.

[Whitebridges]

 

Sorry but I can't agree with you.........North Wales don't look at the person, experience, ground etc. they just won't allow 17HMR for fox, end of.

 

You say as well that if it was a trust issue then it would end with an open ticket...........well I've already got an open ticket but I still can't shoot fox with my 17HMR.

 

It must be as you say.

If I were in your shoes and I desperately wanted .17HMR for fox I would push very hard at a higher level. Maybe you already have a gun they think is more appropriate for fox and therefore you have been left high and dry.

It's a fact that .17HMR is OK for fox. If you take it further I guarantee you will get what you need.

[Whitebridges]

+1 I moved to N Wales with and open ticket and fox list against my hmr, they refused to allow it when the change of address happened. I'd moved 5 miles from Cheshire and was still wanting to use the HMR in Cheshire. The foxes hadn't change the location hadn't change just my postcode now made it dangerous madness. This was a few years ago now but I believe they are still as dogged that HMRs aren't allowed for fox.

 

This is such a stupid situation. I feel for you. It makes absolutely no sense. Personally I wouldn't put up with it.

 

I do however appreciate you can only do what you can do.

[browning123]

Just a personal view....I think the police look at the person, experience, ground they are shooting on, etc etc. Yes, they should follow the home office guidance but they don't have to do this. I like the fact that their objective has to be public safety.

If they wish to be difficult, obtuse call it what you will, this is their business. At the end of the day the issue of trust will end with an open ticket. In my experience ( in Norfolk) the regime is tough, fair and they do not relent to idiots irrespective of the guidance on offer. At the end of the day the firearms teams are there to implement the law of the land to the best of their ability and as resources allow. Sometimes I wish some people would show a bit more respect.

 

I have held an open firearms certificate with North Wales Police for over 40 years, and at my last renewal was refused .17hmr for fox, whereas it was previously allowed.

[Walker570]

This anomaly needs sorting badly. I was only speaking with the Senior Administrator in my area last week and he told me that the HO had agreed that 17HMRs and 204s where acceptable for shooting foxes. In my view that should be end of story. I put a letter of support for a young farmer who wanted a 243 Win for shooting foxes and deer on his own ground, which I have shot over for 20yrs almost. He was initially refused but after he included my letter in his application it was allowed. They would allow a 223, and part of my argument was what is the difference, a 60gr out of either requires good judgement and safe handling. Anyway he got what he wanted. Again the person making the decision was not a shooter.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Walker570