3" .410 Load with Full Length Wad?

[neutron619]

Hello Chaps,

I picked up a new .410 just before Christmas and I've been out patterning various cartridges with it. So far I've tested:

• Eley 3" "ExtraLong" 18g/#7
• Bornaghi 2½" "Extreme" 14g/#7 (= #7½ Italian)
• Eley 3" "Trap" 19g/#7½

I still need to do some more tests with all of these cartridges to quantify the behavior they're showing a bit more, but one trend that has emerged already is that - unsurprisingly - the more protected the pellets are from scraping down the barrel wall, the better the patterns seem to be.

 

In order of diminishing pattern sh*tness:

• The Eley "ExtraLong" cartridge with a fibre disc leaves the pellets completely unprotected from abrasion with the barrel wall and patterns particularly poorly. I've taken 4 short-range wood pigeons with it, but the pattern is barely usable past 25 yards and seems a little iffy as close as 20 yards, through any choke (¾ seems to work best, but it's rather random).
• The Bornaghi "Extreme" load has what I'd call a "mini wad" - i.e. the kind that looks like a child's diabolo toy. There's a skirt to seal the wad against the barrel walls and a short cup to drive the bottom of the shot column, but most of the shot column is unprotected. The pattern is a little better, percentage-wise than the aforementioned Eley cartridge, provided the choke isn't too tight (¾ worked best), but again, not much use past 25 yards.
• The Eley "Trap" load has a skirted / winged wad that sits between the barrel wall and about half of the pellets are protected from abrasion against the barrel. Unsurprisingly, this cartridge patterns a lot better and looks very usable out to 30-35 yards (170+ in the standard circle @ 30yd).

Ignoring (please!) the age-old argument about using clay-cartridges on birds, about which I remain undecided, I have a hunch that I might be able to push the "Trap" cartridge out towards 40 yards. The full-choke patterns showed signs that they might be blown and the ¾ choke (which I didn't have time to test with this cartridge last time I was out) has given better performance than the full choke with the other two cartridges, so dropping down a constriction may produce dividends - I'll test this theory soon.

That said, I'm not going to settle on a cartridge for this gun until I've tested every reasonably balanced load I can get my hands on.

Can anyone tell me which wad are used in the following (or what the wad design is like, if you don't know exactly which one)?

• Gamebore .410 Hunting 3" 16g/#7
• Fiocchi F410 3" 19g/#7 (= #7½ Italian)

Further, does anyone know of a 3" .410 cartridge that uses a full-length wad and where I can obtain some in Cambridgeshire, or at least, somewhere in East Anglia? I think this needs to be where I continue my search for decent patterns.

Many thanks,

Adam.

[sitsinhedges]

I thought Fiocchi used a full length wad. It's certainly the first cartridge I would go to if I had another .410

[neutron619]

I thought Fiocchi used a full length wad. It's certainly the first cartridge I would go to if I had another .410

 

Thanks! I believe Simpsons in Newmarket stock these so I'll be heading over there at the weekend to try and get a box or two.

 

Still interested to hear about the Gamebore cartridge (and any others people might know of)...

[Walker570]

My go to 410 cartridge for my 410 and I shoot it on average 5 to 6 times a month at driven birds, has to be the Fiocchi 3 inch. They have just redesignated it to 18 gr but this only because they found the shot drop was just below 19grs and they didn't want any come back should some busy body weight a few and complain. I have no complaints and at present I am working my way through a slab of these 'new' 18gr shells in size 8 Italian which probably work out somewhere between 7 and 71/2 UK, whatever if I do my bit within 40yrds they work.

I applaud your taking the trouble to pattern because you do learn a great deal with a 410 I have found, with different makes. U have been also shooting some RC #5s now are these #4s UK hmmmm, certainly they are fussy about chokes but probably this is because every ninth or tenth cartridge blows half the case up the barrel with the shot ... disconcerting to say the least. I have some Lylevale fibre and as long as I keep ranges in the 30yrd or less they also will kill well, but the patterns are sparodic in my tests at 35yrds. I think fibre is going to be difficult in a 410 anyway and where I have to I will go back to my 16 gauge.

 

For your information Richard Gray(Affordable Days) who sometimes pops up on here does some excellent all 410 days and I have so far shot three times with him and have three more days booked before seasons end.

 

What shotgun did you buy?

Edited January 4, 2017 by Walker570

[TIGHTCHOKE]

He bought a pretty little Yildiz

[neutron619]

I got a Yildiz multi-choke for a little over £500. I'm very pleased with it so far, though I'm very much still at the testing stage rather than the hunting stage.

 

Echoing your comments above, I was expecting performance to be very variable and such it has been. I owned another (single-barrelled) .410 a year or two back and though I didn't hunt with it, I did shoot some good clays with the Fiocchi load you describe. I didn't keep any of the cartridges when I sold it as I had no use for them, but I remember them being quite "sharp". That may have something to do with the weight or poor fit of the gun however, so a new test is definitely in order based on comments here and elsewhere.

 

It's a funny little gauge, the .410. The Eley "Extralongs" with their RTOs regularly lose their tops down the barrel and melt - much like the RC's you describe, I suspect - and the variability in patterns with tiny .005" changes in constriction is startling. I can't pretend it isn't hugely interesting to a "cartridge nut", however!

 

I have actually sent Richard Gray a PM to ask him what cartridges his guests tend to use, just as a way of building up a picture of what's worth trying. In the meantime, I'll be phoning around to find out who's got what locally and we'll see how they all turn out when I get the chance.

 

To be completely honest, I expected the Bornaghis to shoot a lot better than they did as they have such a good reputation for small bore cartridges. However, they didn't produce any king of usable pattern in the Yildiz, even at 25 yard, which that was a little disappointing. I have hoped it would be possible to find a 14g load that produced sufficient pattern density to get out to 30-35yd, but perhaps that's rather optimistic. The reason for wanting one is simple though - I shoot ¾oz from a 28 gauge, so, ideally, I want a nice light load to justify keeping a .410 in the cabinet too. Once you get up to 17, 18, 19 grams in the .410, it feels a bit redundant when there's a set of larger tubes that'll throw the shot much more effectively. The 28ga isn't half as interesting, though.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I think you should look at the Rio range of .410" shells, they are brought in from Spain by CCI in Corby.

[aga man]

These might be of interest too. Can't say i have paterned them, but they kill pigeons very well through full choke. Suprisingly very punchy on recoil though.

 

 

[lksopener]

For me having used the .410 extensively over the last year or so I'd certainly recommend the fiocchis they are very good and my choice if I have to buy factory loads.

 

However, I prefer my home loads to American specs, the winchesters and Remingtons are far superior to anything we have available. Both with petal wads encasing shot as you describe, re the fiocchis drop me a message and I'll cut one open and photograph it for you if that would be useful?

 

L

[Walker570]

Have not seen those NSI shells. Will try and pick some up and do some tests.

 

I believe the Eley and RC are using the same case, hence the occasional identical blow out.

 

Pattern is KING with a 410, as many of those pellets need to be concentrated and evenly spaced in a 30 inch circle at 30-35yrds to be effective ... then penetration.

I have the Yilditz O/U 30 inch ejector and have been very pleased with it so far, particularly on instinctive shots, where the gun has to move quickly and be on target with little thought. Final bird yesterdays driven shoot was such. Woodcock appeared through a gateway in a high hedge and climbed into the field about 35yrds to my right, wind up it's tail and motoring as only woodcock can whilst appearing to be dawdling along. The little Yilditz came round and the bird folded, smooth as silk. Love it. That was Fiocchi #8 3 inch M.

[Dasher]

Out of interest I find Eley 14g Trap pattern far better than most 3" cartridges, but not as good as 3" Fiocchi #7.5

[motty]

These might be of interest too. Can't say i have paterned them, but they kill pigeons very well through full choke. Suprisingly very punchy on recoil though.

 

 

Bit too expensive for me. I can get the fiocchi 18gm for £6 a box.

[neutron619]

Out of interest I find Eley 14g Trap pattern far better than most 3" cartridges, but not as good as 3" Fiocchi #7.5

 

Thanks for the tip there - I'll try to get hold of some of the 2½" version and give them a test. I'm not stopping with the testing until I've got a cartridge shooting a good 35-40 yard pattern, or I've run out of cartridges to test.

 

Home loads would of course be a second option (14g of shot in a 3" case anyone?) but unfortunately I don't have the funds for a .410 press at this point. One day...

[neutron619]

Have not seen those NSI shells. Will try and pick some up and do some tests.

 

Me neither - will look out for them.

 

To the remainder of your post, seconded. I've bought the SxS non-ejector model - just fancied it over the O/U when it came down to it - and I'm hoping that some combination of chokes and cartridge will give that nice, even 35 yard pattern.

 

Only one way to find out of course, so I'll report back when I've tested some more.

[neutron619]

Both with petal wads encasing shot as you describe, re the fiocchis drop me a message and I'll cut one open and photograph it for you if that would be useful?

 

Thank you for the offer - if you're happy to waste a cartridge on me (doesn't that sound a bit sinister!), I'm certainly interested to see, but what's most of interest is how much of the shot column is "insulated" by the wad. Others have said it's basically full length, so I'm happy to take that as an answer if it's a faff to do / photograph / upload / etc.

[aga man]

Bit too expensive for me. I can get the fiocchi 18gm for £6 a box.

I must admit it's the most i have paid for 410 shells, but i bought them while on holiday last year. I dare say he had my pants down a bit!

 

Great shells though.

[Wilts#Dave]

The game bore magnum .410 shells perform really well through our hushpower pump, really good kills on pigeons out to 30 yards when you get them in the pattern! They're plastic wad as opposed to fibre others seem to be.

Never bothered pattern testing them but never have with any shell to be honest, a slab fired at pigeons tells me if they're any good or not!

I had a hot day on pigeons with it where I managed to shoot 97.....I ran out of the game bore towards the end and had to switch to some express 2.5 inch loads which were nowhere near as good, noticeably so. I prefer 7 shot size too!

[222mark]

Reloading realy is the way to go .410 wise. Obviously chokes a major factor too. Forget full choke as u have no pattern out to 20 yards. I find 8 thou of choke ideal for every situation.

[motty]

Reloading realy is the way to go .410 wise. Obviously chokes a major factor too. Forget full choke as u have no pattern out to 20 yards. I find 8 thou of choke ideal for every situation.

Eh?

[Stonepark]

Eh?

 

I think he believes the shot goes out as one mass (certainly not true in a 410 with fibre wads)

[Stonepark]

Reloading really is the way to go .410 wise. Obviously chokes a major factor too. Forget full choke as u have no pattern out to 20 yards. I find 8 thou of choke ideal for every situation.

 

With Eley fibre No7, I find in my Khan/Revo the cartridge pattern starts to blow between 0.398 and 0.395 with a Briley Light Mod giving the most consistent pattern.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Stonepark

[lksopener]

Certainly not true of full at 20 yards.

[Wilts#Dave]

Eh?

+1 The hushpower only comes in full choke and being the only .410 I've had I'd totally disagree with that comment.....anything less than 20 yards is optimum for mine, plenty of full pattern kills as good as a 12 bore!

[Stonepark]

+1 The hushpower only comes in full choke and being the only .410 I've had I'd totally disagree with that comment.....anything less than 20 yards is optimum for mine, plenty of full pattern kills as good as a 12 bore!

 

Problem is they are over choked and blow the pattern as I have one as well, going to get mine opened up when I have time to run to gunsmith.

[neutron619]

The game bore magnum .410 shells perform really well through our hushpower pump, really good kills on pigeons out to 30 yards when you get them in the pattern! They're plastic wad as opposed to fibre others seem to be.

Never bothered pattern testing them but never have with any shell to be honest, a slab fired at pigeons tells me if they're any good or not!

I had a hot day on pigeons with it where I managed to shoot 97.....I ran out of the game bore towards the end and had to switch to some express 2.5 inch loads which were nowhere near as good, noticeably so. I prefer 7 shot size too!

 

Thanks for this - it's the first time I've heard of anyone using them, so hearing they're not **** keeps me hopeful that I can get hold of some to test.