Article 50 ... Good news?

[Scully]

Without being in the EU our trade would have been noway near as high and the countries standard of living would have been much lower. In the modern world very few countries can go it alone. Until Trump came along even the USA was in a trading group. In my area we have also lost several firms , but mainly due to them becoming out dated in the modern world and locally the EU has pumped millions in to the economy, rebuilt the town centre, and local farmers beneifit from millions of pounds from the EU plus many firms trade with the EU. .

But again, you have no way of knowing all that; it's merely your opinion.

Any money pumped into the economy has come from U.K. taxpayers, not from the EU.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Scully

[panoma1]

No I had the foresight to save into a personal pension for very long time. I get no money from the EU and never have.

So you didn't retire because Brexit was responsible for EU grant funding for your work drying up then?.......And that was not what you claimed in a previous posting either?

[oowee]

 

Do you honestly think this country is going to be in limbo till the EU decides whatever, a stance like that will just pave the way for a hard brexit.

Not in limbo in WTO. It took Greenland 3 years when they left just to agree a fishing policy.

But they can prepare whatever double dealing they like ? IE Gibraltar.

 

But thats typical EU stupidity, why should it be so hard, so complicated? Oh sorry ...its the EU.

 

 

 

So you think it would be better to stay with them till it does collapse?

WE are one of their biggest markets, they need to remember THAT.

 

 

Yes. The Gibralter stuff is just to keep Spain sweet, I hope no substance. I think the wording is something along the lines Spain will be consulted but soverignity is a matter between the two countries.

Yes. If it collapsed a simpler trade arrangement could be put in place.

Yes. We are one of the largest markets for the EU as a whole but not important to all members states. We need them all to agree. No doubt there will be inter eu deals done to help the process by countries like Germany. Remember the Netherlands and the CETA deal with Canada.

[armsid]

The only reason we are the EU largest market is because we lost all our industry which is owned by european companies ,We donot need the EU as much as they need us We have enough time to get all our industry up and running ready for release day and join the world Instead of giving millions in aid we could now trade with these countries. Good days are on the horizon

[lister22]

Why do people call it free trade with the EU we pay £9billion per year for this free trade

[JRDS]

Why do people call it free trade with the EU we pay £9billion per year for this free trade

 

All for the privelige of running a massive trade deficit with them whilst having to accept anyone that wants to come job waiting or not, bargain...............not which is why anyone with an ounce of sense voted out. I wouldn't even bother with negotiations we will just waste 2 more years of payments whilst having to leave our doors open. There will never be an agreement on anything from all 27 nations.

[Savhmr]

Absolutely.

 

To those who think that it will take 5 to 10 years to negotiate trade deals....no, it wont, that's utter nonsense and speculation. America has already stated that it wishes to enter into a trade deal, hopefully within the next 3 years. The length of time it will take is only down to negotiations between the UK and the USA. Yes, this is outwith any other trade bloc....so what? So, currently most other countries trade within some trading bloc because it made sense for them to enter at the time they did. So what if all we have is WTO? That doesn't automatically preclude a trade deal, it just means that we wont get the negotiated best deals that other world trade bloc members currently enjoy, but guess what, it will open up the whole of the world economy to us, something that at the moment is largely governed by EU trading rules for us and not always in our interests.

 

We are free to set our own taxation, we are free to enter trade talks with whom we please, and we will, de facto, be trading with other nations the second we leave the EU in 2 years time. Not 5 years, nor 10 years, but 2 years. Yes, it could well take a decade to shake down the best deals but so what? Will we be under EU control for a decade? Not if we chose not to be. Where we wish to trade, we shall have to obey EU regulations but we knew that and accepted it. So where does that leave us? Actually, just the same exact place we are at present as those same EU regulations are being enshrined into UK law and we shall only repeal those laws that don't fit with our future trade, H&S, industrial or environmental aims. The only real thing to address is a) the levels of taxation worked both ways and b) whether we then have to pay for sector trade deals. It only makes sense to where it is of joint benefit, but guess what, we still do a majority of our trade outside the EU.

 

The whole point about leaving the EU is that humanity, our humanity, is not based solely on the economy. What is so hard to understand about that? Churchill himself said that the united States of Europe was needed for the stability of Europe and for world peace, and that Great Britain was there to support that aim, but never to be directly involved as part of a United States of Europe, as we were one of the other three "Pillars of Peace" (and trade). He also stressed that it was incombent upon our successive governments to protect our Christian nation and Christian principles. Look how that's turned out. We no longer have an armed services capable of going alone, that one was down to Bliar and the EU who wanted control of EU member state armed services and to leave us with rapid reaction forces, no good to man nor beast. It is just one of a huge number of over-controlling and politically doomed, irrevocably flawed policies which continue to pour out of EU leadership. We are now free of that and we should celebrate that fact.

 

Gib won't be conceded for the simple reason that it is too strategically important. It's that simple. Have we conceded the Falklands? So why would we concede and even more important strategic asset like Gib? Its sabre rattling nonsense.

 

There's a lot of total guff coming out of the EU who have finally admitted that us leaving harms them as much as it does us. For that reason, they will do us no favours whatsoever, so unless they start to concede to play by the rules (which currently they are not) then we have little choice but to stick to our guns, refuse any divorce settlement until the terms of a trade deal are discussed (that is actually a requirement of Article 50, and they have already reneged on it) plus if they refuse, we should withhold any further payments to the EU. What are they going to do....fine us? It's them that's breaking the rules, not us. They (the EU) are not Europe and do not speak for all Europeans, something that they would do well to remember.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Savhmr

[bostonmick]

Without being in the EU our trade would have been noway near as high and the countries standard of living would have been much lower. In the modern world very few countries can go it alone. Until Trump came along even the USA was in a trading group. In my area we have also lost several firms , but mainly due to them becoming out dated in the modern world and locally the EU has pumped millions in to the economy, rebuilt the town centre, and local farmers beneifit from millions of pounds from the EU plus many firms trade with the EU. .

Do you not realise that 90% of the businesses in the UK do not trade in Europe.and any subsidise paid to farmers were also being paid before the eu was even thought of.if you want proof that being outside of the EU works then look at the biggest economies of the world. None are in the eu.

[oowee]

Trade deals take years.

They take years because both sides want a deal. Both sides want to sell their product. It's not simply a matter of you sell me x and i will sell you y.

Yes we will be under EU control for years to come. We want (need) to sell to the EU. To do that we will have to comply with EU standards and international law. The UK stands by it's word.

 

Do you not realise that 90% of the businesses in the UK do not trade in Europe.and any subsidise paid to farmers were also being paid before the eu was even thought of.if you want proof that being outside of the EU works then look at the biggest economies of the world. None are in the eu.

We are. Uk Germany and France top 6. EU 2nd largest economy in the world.

Edited April 2, 2017 by oowee

[panoma1]

Without being in the EU our trade would have been noway near as high and the countries standard of living would have been much lower. In the modern world very few countries can go it alone. Until Trump came along even the USA was in a trading group. In my area we have also lost several firms , but mainly due to them becoming out dated in the modern world and locally the EU has pumped millions in to the economy, rebuilt the town centre, and local farmers beneifit from millions of pounds from the EU plus many firms trade with the EU. .

And where do you think the EU got the millions of pounds "they" pumped into the economy, rebuilt town centres and give to farmers? Poland? Romania? Slovakia? Slovenia? Malta? Greece? Eire? ......nope! they got it from us!

[oowee]

Got it from us and Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, Sweden, Belgium, Denmark, Austria, Luxembourg and Finland. All net contributors.

Why? Because in the long term a stable and profitable EU is good business for all those in Europe. The development of the other nations is a great opportunity for us and others to sell product and services. So in a round about way we get most of the cash back.

[12gauge82]

Got it from us and Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, Sweden, Belgium, Denmark, Austria, Luxembourg and Finland. All net contributors.

Why? Because in the long term a stable and profitable EU is good business for all those in Europe. The development of the other nations is a great opportunity for us and others to sell product and services. So in a round about way we get most of the cash back.

All this is irrelevant, democracy has spoken, the people of the UK do not want EU supremacy of our legal system, nor do they want unchecked movement of people with no way of curtailing or regulating it or free access to the whole of Europe of our NHS, if this is not carried through uk citizens are not living in a democracy but a dictatorship, I can understand people having a difference of opinion and voting remain, but the votes are counted and the result is evident, we need to all pull together and get on with it.

[panoma1]

Apparantly out of the £350 million pounds per week the U.K. pays into the EU......in 2013 the UK paid in £10.8 billion more into the EU than it took out!......2016 the UK paid €7.1 billion into the EU more than it took out........

[Yellow Bear]

Apparantly out of the £350 million pounds per week the U.K. pays into the EU......in 2013 the UK paid in £10.8 billion more into the EU than it took out!......2016 the UK paid €7.1 billion into the EU more than it took out........

Junker's bar bill

[oowee]

All this is irrelevant, democracy has spoken, the people of the UK do not want EU supremacy of our legal system, nor do they want unchecked movement of people with no way of curtailing or regulating it or free access to the whole of Europe of our NHS, if this is not carried through uk citizens are not living in a democracy but a dictatorship, I can understand people having a difference of opinion and voting remain, but the votes are counted and the result is evident, we need to all pull together and get on with it.

You are missing the point of the discussion. Try to re read the posts.

[panoma1]

Junker's bar bill

Junkers bar bill aside! Can someone explain to me? What does the ordinary man in the street get for the £10.8 billion or the 7.1 billion surplus we gave the EU, just in the two years highlighted?

 

God only knows how much more money the UK has given to the EU.......than we have taken out over the years?

Edited April 2, 2017 by panoma1

[12gauge82]

You are missing the point of the discussion. Try to re read the posts.

I don't think I am, all the way through this thread you and anser have given reasons we're better off in than out, I'm making the point that line of argument is irrelevant, democracy dictates what must happen which does not involve giving up anything that a sovereign stand alone state has to be a member of this crack pot club called the EU.

[Rewulf]

Trade deals take years. Why?

 

They take years because both sides want a deal. Both sides want to sell their product. It's not simply a matter of you sell me x and i will sell you y. Of course its a matter of that. What else is it ?

The trade 'deal' is the matter of how much tax the governments want to skim on the 'deal'

The EU has simply set itself up as a high admin, meddlesome agent.

THATS why it takes so long!

 

Yes we will be under EU control for years to come. We want (need) to sell to the EU. To do that we will have to comply with EU standards and international law. The UK stands by it's word.

Again ,you seem to think the EU is the European government?

When did it become this, I thought all the nations of Europe had their own governments?

 

 

 

YOU need to reread your posts, all your questions are answered by yourself.

The reason the EU takes so long to sort trade deals is because of its ridiculous structure, and because the longer it takes the more money it can charge for admin.

Its a solicitor with no ombudsman to control it ,handling a big divorce case, that its going to drag on as long as it can.

What I find strange is , you seem to be revelling in the fact ?

[bostonmick]

 

We are. Uk Germany and France top 6. EU 2nd largest economy in the world.

The eu is only that high on the list because there is 28 countries all combined.if America.japan China and Russia combined they would make the eu look like a third world country.

 

Also look at the poverty in Europe.and at home.i believe the amount Of food banks is a growth industry in the UK.maybe people should drive a bit further than ten miles from London to see how run down most of this country is.also if the eu was so wonderful for us trade wise how is it we have to give aid to some countries to buy our goods and services.dont know how long I would stay in business if I had to give my customers the money to buy from me.

Edited April 2, 2017 by bostonmick

[Scully]

The eu is only that high on the list because there is 28 countries all combined.if America.japan China and Russia combined they would make the eu look like a third world country.

 

Also look at the poverty in Europe.and at home.i believe the amount Of food banks is a growth industry in the UK.maybe people should drive a bit further than ten miles from London to see how run down most of this country is.also if the eu was so wonderful for us trade wise how is it we have to give aid to some countries to buy our goods and services.dont know how long I would stay in business if I had to give my customers the money to buy from me.

That Mick, is a good post.

[oowee]

The eu is only that high on the list because there is 28 countries all combined.if America.japan China and Russia combined they would make the eu look like a third world country.

 

Also look at the poverty in Europe.and at home.i believe the amount Of food banks is a growth industry in the UK.maybe people should drive a bit further than ten miles from London to see how run down most of this country is.also if the eu was so wonderful for us trade wise how is it we have to give aid to some countries to buy our goods and services.dont know how long I would stay in business if I had to give my customers the money to buy from me.

Europe is one continent, China the US and Russia another. You can add them up any number of ways you like but combined they are individual trading places. The EU is a described market. You stated that the biggest economies in the world were not in the EU. I pointed out that they are.

 

My post 134 talked about the gap between rich and poor. Its a mark of a mature economy where the gap increases as some trade on knowledge and those without must compete on price.

Edited April 2, 2017 by oowee

[Vince Green]

Junkers bar bill aside! Can someone explain to me? What does the ordinary man in the street get for the £10.8 billion or the 7.1 billion surplus we gave the EU, just in the two years highlighted?

 

God only knows how much more money the UK has given to the EU.......than we have taken out over the years?

 

Or how much money is taken out of the country in cash by the thousands of migrant workers who come here to work cash in hand in building, cleaning etc. That goes unrecorded and untaxed. I don't want to stop them coming because we need them but it would be nice if they had to fill out a simple registration form.

I have said all along, before Brexit was even on the horizon, free movement of people does not mean unrecorded movement of people.

[anser2]

Do you not realise that 90% of the businesses in the UK do not trade in Europe.and any subsidise paid to farmers were also being paid before the eu was even thought of.if you want proof that being outside of the EU works then look at the biggest economies of the world. None are in the eu.

But 40% of our business is with the EU. As for farmers some subsidises were paid to farmers , but the amount was dwalfed by the money pumped into farming by the EU via CAP , ES and HLS. True outside of Europe countries are not members of the EU , but countries like the USA have their own trading groups which is what I said in my last post..

[panoma1]

The UK sells 44% of its exported goods to the EU....and the UK buys 53% of its imports goods from the EU!........and yes, the EU put money into U.K. Farming, by way of grants and susidies, but it was the UK's own money!........and the EU kept the €7.1 billion surplus out of money the U.K. Paid to the EU in 2016......

[12gauge82]

But 40% of our business is with the EU. As for farmers some subsidises were paid to farmers , but the amount was dwalfed by the money pumped into farming by the EU via CAP , ES and HLS. True outside of Europe countries are not members of the EU , but countries like the USA have their own trading groups which is what I said in my last post..

I don't see your argument, if I give you a hundred pounds and you give me ten pounds back you haven't given me money, you've taken ninety pounds from, it's not hard.