Fishery owner and farmer facing legal action on his no eastern Europeans policy

[Rewulf]

[panoma1]

If the reports were accurate this guy was systematically being robbed, plain and simple, if the law cannot/will not protect people from criminal acts, more and more people will take the law into their own hands!....that is what this guy tried to do!.........Unfortunately the means he chose, was, it seems illegal, however If he had proof that the alleged crimes were committed solely by a particular group, surely his actions were defendable under the "reasonableness test"

My sympathies lie with him!

[walshie]

I think the point here is that both were considered crimes, but the PC brigade were so one-sided in their condemnation of a poster that may or may not have hurt people's feelings, that they had little time left to condemn the actual crime of theft and ruining a man's livelihood.

Condemn both crimes or condemn none. No cherry picking which will get you the most brownie points down the liberal club. 

[Gordon R]

walshie - now there should be no argument with that.

[Rewulf]

47 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

walshie - now there should be no argument with that.

I wouldnt bank on it 

[henry d]

On 16/02/2018 at 11:18, walshie said:

I think the point here is that both were considered crimes, but the PC brigade were so one-sided in their condemnation of a poster that may or may not have hurt people's feelings, that they had little time left to condemn the actual crime of theft and ruining a man's livelihood.

Condemn both crimes or condemn none. No cherry picking which will get you the most brownie points down the liberal club. 

It could be said that the right w(h)ingers did not go down the same route either and were too un-PC to even think that singling out one race is wrong?

[walshie]

1 minute ago, henry d said:

It could be said that the right w(h)ingers did not go down the same route either and were too un-PC to even think that singling out one race is wrong?

2 wrongs don't make a right. 

And Eastern European isn't a race. 

[henry d]

Quote

Race is a concept used in the categorization of humans into groups, called races or racial groups, based on combinations of shared physical traits, ancestry, genetics, and social or cultural traits.

Exactly, so he should not have singled out these people, as said before, just say no taking of fish (by anyone)

[Rewulf]

On 2/19/2018 at 11:09, henry d said:

Exactly, so he should not have singled out these people, as said before, just say no taking of fish (by anyone)

Thats already the rule on his lake/farm, I would imagine its clearly stated.
Some people of a certain 'race' ignored the rule, so he banned them.
Tarring all with the same brush ? Yes, desperate times, desperate measures I would imagine.
His lake ,his rules, or cant we do that anymore ?

'Race is a concept used in the categorization of humans into groups, called races or racial groups, based on combinations of shared physical traits, ancestry, genetics, and social or cultural traits.'

The concept of being a different race because you practice  different 'social or cultural traits' works quite reasonably in some instances, like for example Jews and Muslims not eating pork.
But its such a broad sweeping term, and it is rendered useless in this situation.
Is a vegan a different race, a vegetarian ?
Are Poles and eastern Europeans a different race because they illegally keep the fish they catch to eat or sell, whilst an Englishman respects the rules and does not ?

Using the concept of race to shield someone from the consequences of criminal acts ,is a minefield you do not want to cross.
When in Rome..

[henry d]

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

His lake ,his rules, or cant we do that anymore ? No, we have a social contract that we will adhere to the laws of the land. If you don`t like it, then leave or change it using the correct routes.

'Race is a concept used in the categorization of humans into groups, called races or racial groups, based on combinations of shared physical traits, ancestry, genetics, and social or cultural traits.'

The concept of being a different race because you practice  different 'social or cultural traits' works quite reasonably in some instances, like for example Jews and Muslims not eating pork.
But its such a broad sweeping term, and it is rendered useless in this situation.
Is a vegan a different race, a vegetarian ? Combinations, its up there in 28 point so you can`t miss it
Are Poles and eastern Europeans a different race because they illegally keep the fish they catch to eat or sell, (see the above again) whilst an Englishman respects the rules and does not ? I refer you to my earlier post re; British poachers on another fieldsport site

Using the concept of race to shield someone from the consequences of criminal acts ,is a minefield you do not want to cross.
When in Rome.. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

And on a slight tangent, I quite like perch, pike not so much, those Y shaped bones...

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

And on a slight tangent, I quite like perch, pike not so much, those Y shaped bones...

Oh dear Henry. 

That appears to have rattled your cage somewhat! 

Apparently according to your rules, a different race has to be a combination of err.. differences, you need to think this through. 

Plus our 'social contract' means we can't make up rules for an establishment, in case they might offend someone who is different enough to qualify as a distinct race? 

If you went abroad and an establishment said ' No British allowed' because they had trouble with our lot before, would you take them to task over it? 

And what has an eye for an eye got to do with 'when in Rome'? We are not talking about retribution here, that's a different thread! 

Can you not give a tiny bit of ground and see the farmers argument? 

[henry d]

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Oh dear Henry. 

That appears to have rattled your cage somewhat!  Not really

Apparently according to your rules, a different race has to be a combination of err.. differences, you need to think this through. Not my rules, and I don`t need to rethink it

Plus our 'social contract' means we can't make up rules for an establishment, in case they might offend someone who is different enough to qualify as a distinct race? Yup

If you went abroad and an establishment said ' No British allowed' because they had trouble with our lot before, would you take them to task over it? As above

And what has an eye for an eye got to do with 'when in Rome'? We are not talking about retribution here, that's a different thread! I just threw in an quotation that was the same as yours, irrelevant

Can you not give a tiny bit of ground and see the farmers argument? I can see the argument for not stealing, and for obeying the rules (unless a fish is bleeding badly, in which case I would dispatch it and pass to the owner for disposal), but not for deliberately over generalising that a certain race will catch and keep fish. That is the law as is stealing, neither are right as I have said before and for the farmer or anyone else to turn round and say "...but they did it first..." is just childish in the extreme and as I said an eye for an eye...

 

[Rewulf]

neither are right as I have said before and for the farmer or anyone else to turn round and say "...but they did it first..." is just childish in the extreme and as I said an eye for an eye...

• That's been discussed already,, for crying out loud ! If they hadn't started stealing his fish the sign wouldn't have gone up, or again do you think he's just a xenophobic racist, and that's the end of it in your mind ?

You set the bar for what defines a different race, by putting common sense aside for the purposes of your argument. Then spat your dummy  out when I pointed out the flaws,

That's childish.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Rewulf

[henry d]

No, I got the definition, I didn't just think it up. Unfortunately I don't seem to understand how the definition of race is flawed, could you explain it in more than one short sentence please? Might be just be me being thick and not understanding the delicate nuances of your argument

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, henry d said:

No, I got the definition, I didn't just think it up. Unfortunately I don't seem to understand how the definition of race is flawed, could you explain it in more than one short sentence please? Might be just be me being thick and not understanding the delicate nuances of your argument

No, but I understand the delicate nuances of your superior intellect, and sarcasm.

When you dont want to see something, you wont see it, thats your prerogative.
It doesnt make you right though, factually, or morally Im afraid.

Its a free country, and opinions are still free for the time being, people can decide what is racist, sexist or any other 'ist' they like, some of it might even be covered by a law someone thought up.
But is it 'right' ?
There comes a time when these new laws and rules fly in the face of common sense, sometimes.
Were we that much poorer when we didnt have them ?
Are we so much richer now we do ?

Ask yourself this one question.
Why does racism only work one way ?
Why is racism against a British white person, never discussed or reported ?
Do you think its because it doesnt happen?

My experiences are probably completely different to yours, but dont dismiss my opinion because it differs to your own.

[henry d]

Rather than mess about with many different questions that you seem to want me to answer and assertions to correct, lets go back to basics.

The sign says;

• No vehicle access
• No Polish or Eastern Bloc fisherman allowed
• No children or dogs allowed

Vehicles, children and dogs are not races. Polish is, and Eastern Bloc is although it is a pretty rubbish term as it doesn`t really apply as the EB eventually died around the late 80`s early 90`s, but we will add them to the list, sooooo; Albania, bulgaria, Czech republic, East Germany (Yeah, how does that work?), hungary, Poland (again), romania, USSR, Yugoslavia. So is that enough races that are distinct enough to be classed as races? If so he was wrong to single them out, ethically. Would "No blacks" or "No Irish" have been allowed? This is common sense, it isn`t a new rule and yes it was a poorer time when we seemed to be happy enough to laugh at some idiot talking about races as if they were lesser beings and the sad fact is it seems to be something we are still accepting of, the youtube vid above is testament to that.... more to come as I`m off to the gym

[Newbie to this]

I know it's not your own definition of 'race', but to me there is only one 'race' and that is the human race. What is being talked about above is nationality.

[hambone]

Possibly the sign should have said no thieves or maybe thieves will be prosecuted and left it at that then the only ones 'OFFENDED' would be the thieves.  

And it probably wasn't their fault as they were brought up eating carp and perch   

Edited February 23, 2018 by hambone

[Rewulf]

17 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

I know it's not your own definition of 'race', but to me there is only one 'race' and that is the human race. What is being talked about above is nationality.

Again Newbie, youre wasting your time.
He wants to have an argument about racists, you could have Poles and Eastern Europeans themselves come on this thread and condemn the actions of the fish thieves, he would probably call them racists too 
The fact remains, the people he banned are the people ,who potentially , are the people who keep their catch to eat or sell.
They will be aware of the rule not to do so, but ignore it.
Its a simple question of economics to ban people who steal, he just went the wrong way about it, again, for 8 years before it bothered anyone.
It doesnt get any simpler than that really.

Why they keep bringing up the 'blacks and Irish' thing Ive no idea, its got nothing to do with it.
That was pure ignorance, from a tiny minority of people, that the media had a field day with.
Its just another excuse to shout RACIST! again, its pretty tiresome now.

This is a man trying to protect his property and living.
You would think that people would worry about more important things, than getting their panties in a twist over a sign on a fishing lake no ones ever heard of.

[henry d]

No he was being a racist, as he said (in 2009)

Quote

“I’ll shut the place before I tolerate them back here – I don’t care what the lefties or the Human Rights say.”

He added: “I can discriminate against any nation I want.”

Also I can`t find any mention of him stopping people with fish, he said;

Quote

he erected the sign after he was told “there’s Poles or somebody stealing fish”

So some of what the OP was saying doesn`t seem to ring true about finding fish on people.

[Rewulf]

22 hours ago, henry d said:

No he was being a racist, as he said (in 2009)

Also I can`t find any mention of him stopping people with fish, he said;

So some of what the OP was saying doesn`t seem to ring true about finding fish on people.

So hes a racist, a liar, probably uneducated too 

No fish were stolen, he just wanted to further his fascist ideals against Poles?

And OMG! hes an ex Tory councillor to boot, proves it.
Probably a brown shirt in his wardrobe.

Edit , more racists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-22104151

Edited February 26, 2018 by Rewulf

[henry d]

So are you just being inflamatory without looking at the facts?

Same goes for Mr Whiteheads case, " He said he believed people from Eastern Europe visiting the lake before closing time were responsible and he wanted to protect his livelihood.... and that he explained the rules to all fisherman who used the lake." So if they come in late in the day and set up and aren`t allowed to fish overnight then they must be the best fishermen in the UK, we used to spend many hours (some spend days) just trying to get a run never mind a fish!

Quick google and carp prices £6-75 /lb so £10K of carp is 1400lb-ish of fish, how does that amount of fish disappear if he is sure who is doing it and is serious about his security? Otters/goosanders/mergansers/cormorants/natural causes/bad handling mortality... do these not also cause deaths, and yes people will take fish illegally, but really?

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

So are you just being inflamatory without looking at the facts?

 

 

Im being inflammatory ? You need to read some of your replies on this thread ,and others.

Lets look at the facts.
Both lakes have noticed fish going missing, Im pretty sure that after 25 years of running fishing lakes, they understand that natural predators take fish.
They probably take reasonable steps to minimize this.
So, if an unusual amount of fish   'disappear ' can we not establish that something else beside predators and disease has taken them?

If a man leaves the fishing ground taking with him, more than he took in, would you say there is a possibility he may be taking fish ?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/386379/British-rivers-stripped-of-fish-by-East-European-poachers

Do Brits eat carp ? No

Do Poles eat carp ? Yes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/35028556/my-job-is-telling-people-from-eastern-europe-not-to-eat-carp-from-uk-rivers

Do you think there is a reasonable possibility that Polish and East European fisherman have illegally taken the fish ?
If you demand to search these people, do you think they will let you ?
Do you think the police would be interested in coming out if you reported it ?
So what would you do ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-440226/Signs-warn-Polish-anglers-stop-eating-carp.html

You have had various water bailiffs tell you there is a problem, do you seriously believe there isnt ?
I remember early 2000 ish DEFRA wanted to arm its water bailiffs with batons and CS gas, due to threats from illegal fisherman, without naming any particular nationality, it was widely known they were E. Europeans issuing the threats, often with weapons.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1525698/Fury-as-migrant-anglers-eat-the-fish.html

So if your business is being robbed into extinction, and the law wont help you, what do you do ?
You ban the people doing the robbing, and if that means a blanket ban using illegal signs, what do you have to lose?
If it was me I would do it differently, with some type of membership, with an unwritten rule in it..but does it make you racist to want to protect your business and property ?

Again ask yourself what YOU would do.
And stop seeing racism and discrimination first, and the bigger issue last.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/britains-rivers-becoming-hotbed-of-crime-as-organised-gangs-steal-fish-on-a-huge-scale-a6752271.html

Edited February 27, 2018 by Rewulf

[Penelope]

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Im being inflammatory ? You need to read some of your replies on this thread ,and others.

Lets look at the facts.
Both lakes have noticed fish going missing, Im pretty sure that after 25 years of running fishing lakes, they understand that natural predators take fish.
They probably take reasonable steps to minimize this.
So, if an unusual amount of fish   'disappear ' can we not establish that something else beside predators and disease has taken them?

If a man leaves the fishing ground taking with him, more than he took in, would you say there is a possibility he may be taking fish ?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/386379/British-rivers-stripped-of-fish-by-East-European-poachers

Do Brits eat carp ? No

Do Poles eat carp ? Yes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/35028556/my-job-is-telling-people-from-eastern-europe-not-to-eat-carp-from-uk-rivers

Do you think there is a reasonable possibility that Polish and East European fisherman have illegally taken the fish ?
If you demand to search these people, do you think they will let you ?
Do you think the police would be interested in coming out if you reported it ?
So what would you do ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-440226/Signs-warn-Polish-anglers-stop-eating-carp.html

You have had various water bailiffs tell you there is a problem, do you seriously believe there isnt ?
I remember early 2000 ish DEFRA wanted to arm its water bailiffs with batons and CS gas, due to threats from illegal fisherman, without naming any particular nationality, it was widely known they were E. Europeans issuing the threats, often with weapons.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1525698/Fury-as-migrant-anglers-eat-the-fish.html

So if your business is being robbed into extinction, and the law wont help you, what do you do ?
You ban the people doing the robbing, and if that means a blanket ban using illegal signs, what do you have to lose?
If it was me I would do it differently, with some type of membership, with an unwritten rule in it..but does it make you racist to want to protect your business and property ?

Again ask yourself what YOU would do.
And stop seeing racism and discrimination first, and the bigger issue last.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/britains-rivers-becoming-hotbed-of-crime-as-organised-gangs-steal-fish-on-a-huge-scale-a6752271.html

Well said Rewulf, it's rife the country over.

[Rewulf]

56 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Well said Rewulf, it's rife the country over.

Of course it is, anyone who fishes knows that.
But its rarely reported, because its so difficult to prove, and dodgy ground to single out a 'minority' for doing it.

What really gets my blood boiling is, when someone does call them out on it, the media and people like Henry, get all outraged about the injustice and prejudice, not about the fish theft and blatant disregard of our laws, but about a poxy sign ! Plenty of column inches for that!

People complain about racism and discrimination, in this, one of the most tolerant societies in the world.
You end up punishing people who transgress even slightly across the red line they have drawn.
Will this create a MORE tolerant society ?
By being intolerant towards the people who have lived here for generations, you create hatred and resentment where it may not have existed beforehand.
You reap what you sow.