Fisheruk Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) I am certain his aninimity should be forfeited if he offends as an adult. If he knew that was a possibility it may have been an added incentive to keep on the straight and narrow. Edited January 7, 2018 by Fisheruk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 06/01/2018 at 13:31, Wb123 said: I am quite supportive of the idea of rehabilitation even in highly emotive cases, he just seems to have demonstrated he is not rehabilitatable. Throw away the key. my feelings too, I don't support the death penalty as a rule, but maybe in this case that might just be for the best. prison is there to rehabilitate, if it's not working then do something else that does work for the greater good, I very much doubt he's going to do anything to redeem himself to the human race, so maybe it's time to put him to sleep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wb123 Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 4 hours ago, Gordon R said: I must be living in another country. I thought crime had gone up - big time. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/june2017 Eye balling this we have at best a 50% increase in absolute numbers (if you assume no change in how well it is recorded) or at worst a doubling in absolute numbers depending how you draw a line of best fit, but with 20% population growth over the same period. I can accept from those figures that crime may well have increased per head of population. That said given the massive improvements in recording of crime we have also had and electronic crime and fraud newly possible at scale and presumably often based abroad has the picture changed that much if one écrite with a card skimmer is 100 crimes in a night rather than 5 puckpocketings? 14 minutes ago, Paddy Galore! said: my feelings too, I don't support the death penalty as a rule, but maybe in this case that might just be for the best. prison is there to rehabilitate, if it's not working then do something else that does work for the greater good, I very much doubt he's going to do anything to redeem himself to the human race, so maybe it's time to put him to sleep If it wasn't for the fact that locking him up till he dies of old age works out cheaper than letting the lawyers get involved with the death penalty I would be tempted to agree. He could however be put on a rather rough wing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 Wb123 - I assume you are having a laugh. If you think crime has reduced, you are delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wb123 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 11 hours ago, Gordon R said: Wb123 - I assume you are having a laugh. If you think crime has reduced, you are delusional. I'm young enough not to be able to compare by personal experience to the sixties and seventies, but the data doesn't seem to universally support the idea of a huge rise. Absolute numbers are a very murky field due to improved data collection and supposedly increased incentives to report crime (improved insurance coverage and compensation). Interestingly the crime survey for England and Wales, supposedly the best tool for international comparions (based on interviewing people who haven't necessarily reported crime) suggests crime has been falling since 1995. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 There is a reluctance to send offenders to prisons, which are already massively overcrowded. That alone should tell you something. Surveys suggesting crime has fallen are merely wrong. Acid attacks, knife crime, terrorism, rapes, assaults, tax evasion - probably all an illusion. You are right - crime doesn't exist any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 I have quoted Disraeli many times, he said "there are three types of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics" the powers that be 'massage' data to say what they want it to say!....if you believe crime is falling in the UK.....you should probably stop believing what you hear/read in the media? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Wb123 said: I'm young enough not to be able to compare by personal experience to the sixties and seventies, but the data doesn't seem to universally support the idea of a huge rise. Absolute numbers are a very murky field due to improved data collection and supposedly increased incentives to report crime (improved insurance coverage and compensation). Interestingly the crime survey for England and Wales, supposedly the best tool for international comparions (based on interviewing people who haven't necessarily reported crime) suggests crime has been falling since 1995. Crime has gone way up, the way crime is recorded has also masked the higher crime rate yet still can't keep a lid on it, prison reoffending rates are also way higher, there are specific crimes that have reduced like car theft but thats to do with far better car security although that to is now on the rise again, of course this isn't news the governent likes to shout about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 How about looking at this from another direction, which will probably make me unpopular but so be it. Two ten year old boys in 1993 decide to abduct, injure, torture (Physically and sexually), then kill a two year old. The questions I would like answered are; How do they get ideas such as the abduction and sexual and physical torture of a small child in the first place? Had one or both been subject to torture and/or told about these things by adults? My reasons are simple, these things don`t just appear in the heads of ten year olds, there has to be something else. There was little to no internet so we can count that out, he came from a respectable (according to the lawyer and some press, others disagree) family and the lawyer has stated he was so disturbed by the whole thing (He initially thought JV was not guilty) he was ill afterwards and described it as a life changing event. So was it something RT told him if it wasn`t something from his past history? Add to all of this the failings of the system that was supposed to help rehabilitate him and you get a perfect storm. If you want to read some more about this, take 30 minutes or so and read and think about this article HERE Please do not comment on this post without reading the article first, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 hours ago, henry d said: How about looking at this from another direction, which will probably make me unpopular but so be it. Two ten year old boys in 1993 decide to abduct, injure, torture (Physically and sexually), then kill a two year old. The questions I would like answered are; How do they get ideas such as the abduction and sexual and physical torture of a small child in the first place? Had one or both been subject to torture and/or told about these things by adults? My reasons are simple, these things don`t just appear in the heads of ten year olds, there has to be something else. There was little to no internet so we can count that out, he came from a respectable (according to the lawyer and some press, others disagree) family and the lawyer has stated he was so disturbed by the whole thing (He initially thought JV was not guilty) he was ill afterwards and described it as a life changing event. So was it something RT told him if it wasn`t something from his past history? Add to all of this the failings of the system that was supposed to help rehabilitate him and you get a perfect storm. If you want to read some more about this, take 30 minutes or so and read and think about this article HERE Please do not comment on this post without reading the article first, thanks! I havent read the article as i dont feel i need to, regardless of the whos, whats and whys of Venables offences and why he committd them I think it's simple, he's dangerous now, he cannot be rehabilitated and clearly poses a serious threat to innocent children, he should be executed or at least locked up for life to keep society safe, I love dogs but if I had a dog that posed a risk to the public I'd have it put down for everyone's good and like I said, I like dogs, Venables is lower than pond life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 On 06/01/2018 at 10:33, 12gauge82 said: Our justice system stinks, the human rights act doesn't help either, if they're going to keep the HRA it shouldn't apply when someone has committd a gross breach of someone else's human rights, I.e murder, rape ect. Not this again! We cant pick and choose who gets human rights. The protection of the human rights act is a bit like car insurance. If you never need it you wonder what the hell you have it for. If you do ever need it, you’ll be bloody greatful it’s there. Unfortunately even scum like this guy have human rights. That’s how we manage a civilised society. He can spend the rest of his days in a small dark cell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 11 hours ago, 12gauge82 said: I havent read the article as i dont feel i need to, regardless of the whos, whats and whys of Venables offences and why he committd them I think it's simple, he's dangerous now, he cannot be rehabilitated and clearly poses a serious threat to innocent children, he should be executed or at least locked up for life to keep society safe, I love dogs but if I had a dog that posed a risk to the public I'd have it put down for everyone's good and like I said, I like dogs, Venables is lower than pond life. ...and that is why I said that you needed to read the article first. If someone had made the dog unstable before you had it and this was made worse by other external factors, it would indeed be right to have the dog killed, but he is still a human. We put down dogs with abnormalities or illnesses that we cannot afford to treat, we don`t with humans, so your argument is a bad one. If JV is guilty and the system has not done it`s best (you didn`t read the article so you can`t know either way, well done you!) then the system is at fault and like the carer who had sex with him should be investigated and sorted out. Go read the article and if you can say after that, that JV was just bad to the core and everyone around him did their level best to rehabilitate him then I`d love to hear your logical argument for that. A blank refusal to not read it shows you have made your mind up before assessing the evidence and are either a sheep following the rest of the flock and incapable of rational thinking or are just bloodthirsty, I hope, for the sake of justice, you never sit on a jury! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 It's all to late though, it matters not who caused his messed up issues, he's dangerous and at the very least needs locking up and having the key thrown away, personally I feel the death penalty is more fitting though, why waste money on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 9 hours ago, Lloyd90 said: Not this again! We cant pick and choose who gets human rights. The protection of the human rights act is a bit like car insurance. If you never need it you wonder what the hell you have it for. If you do ever need it, you’ll be bloody greatful it’s there. Unfortunately even scum like this guy have human rights. That’s how we manage a civilised society. He can spend the rest of his days in a small dark cell. But that's the problem, due to the human rights act scum like this would have been given an IPP sentence for an offence like possessing indecent images of children as it shows a pattern of behaviour and after what he did the first time, he would never have been released from it as although that sentence would have a low number of years as a sentence (judges are bound usaully to sentence guidlines) IPP sentencing means hes locked up for life untill he can prove to the parole board he's safe to release (common sense really as he',s shown a pattern of behavior) thanks to the human rights act however, that's no longer an option as the act made that sentence illegal under article 3 of the human rights act "No one shall be subjected to torture or inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" the act deemed IPP sentencing to be unlawful as it is a form of torture to lock someone up without a release date for more minor offences, the HRA has enabled many many good people to have their lives shattered or worse while protecting the perpetrators, if you commit serious offences you should forfit them at the least, what was so wrong with the UK before we signed up to them in 1998, the UK lead the way on human rights, I'm looking forwards to the British bill of rights which will hopefully replace them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said: But that's the problem, due to the human rights act scum like this would have been given an IPP sentence for an offence like possessing indecent images of children as it shows a pattern of behaviour and after what he did the first time, he would never have been released from it as although that sentence would have a low number of years as a sentence (judges are bound usaully to sentence guidlines) IPP sentencing means hes locked up for life untill he can prove to the parole board he's safe to release (common sense really as he',s shown a pattern of behavior) thanks to the human rights act however, that's no longer an option as the act made that sentence illegal under article 3 of the human rights act "No one shall be subjected to torture or inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" the act deemed IPP sentencing to be unlawful as it is a form of torture to lock someone up without a release date for more minor offences, the HRA has enabled many many good people to have their lives shattered or worse while protecting the perpetrators, if you commit serious offences you should forfit them at the least, what was so wrong with the UK before we signed up to them in 1998, the UK lead the way on human rights, I'm looking forwards to the British bill of rights which will hopefully replace them. I will be very interested to see the proposal for a bill of rights and the details of it. Just be cautious, as with the fear of ‘chipping away bit by bit, of our right to have firearms’ - do we want them t chip away bit by bit for our human rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: I will be very interested to see the proposal for a bill of rights and the details of it. Just be cautious, as with the fear of ‘chipping away bit by bit, of our right to have firearms’ - do we want them t chip away bit by bit for our human rights? This is how I see it too! Be careful what you wish for!......we have already seen attacks on our right to be deemed innocent until proven guilty..........now in some instances it's guilty until you prove yourself innocent! I would not like to see the authorities take the power to choose those of our current rights they choose to recognise! And those they choose to ignore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 We were fine as it was in 1998, I think there were far less infringements of our rights then, yes I fully agree that we should have rights but at the point someone' committed murder, rape, torture, kidnapping ect they should forefit them in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) On 06/01/2018 at 09:20, Gordon R said: Whatever he has done, let the matter be settled in court. What I do have a problem with is his continued anonymity. When he re-offended the first time, he should have lost that privilege. I'm a bit late to this debate, but trying to maintain his anonymity does not just protect JV from retribution, but it also serves to prevent other from becoming vigilantes and screwing up their own life in the process. Despite its sometimes high profile failings we do generally have a very good justice system in this country and we don't want or need to be turning otherwise innocent folk into vigilantes driven by, understandably, strong emotion. Edited January 11, 2018 by grrclark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said: We were fine as it was in 1998, I think there were far less infringements of our rights then, yes I fully agree that we should have rights but at the point someone' committed murder, rape, torture, kidnapping ect they should forefit them in my view. 1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said: We were fine as it was in 1998, I think there were far less infringements of our rights then, yes I fully agree that we should have rights but at the point someone' committed murder, rape, torture, kidnapping ect they should forefit them in my view. As I see it, the authorities should never be allowed to disenfranchise everyone in order to punish criminals and those that use and abuse the system! If the authorities wanted to go down that road they should have the testicles to legislate to remove the rights of criminals and stop those who would abuse the system.......but that would cost money!..............Far cheaper, easier and very convenient to disenfranchise everyone! One naughty pupil....if you can't identify him/her punish everyone by keeping the whole class in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 20 hours ago, henry d said: How about looking at this from another direction, which will probably make me unpopular but so be it. Two ten year old boys in 1993 decide to abduct, injure, torture (Physically and sexually), then kill a two year old. The questions I would like answered are; How do they get ideas such as the abduction and sexual and physical torture of a small child in the first place? Had one or both been subject to torture and/or told about these things by adults? My reasons are simple, these things don`t just appear in the heads of ten year olds, there has to be something else. There was little to no internet so we can count that out, he came from a respectable (according to the lawyer and some press, others disagree) family and the lawyer has stated he was so disturbed by the whole thing (He initially thought JV was not guilty) he was ill afterwards and described it as a life changing event. So was it something RT told him if it wasn`t something from his past history? Add to all of this the failings of the system that was supposed to help rehabilitate him and you get a perfect storm. If you want to read some more about this, take 30 minutes or so and read and think about this article HERE Please do not comment on this post without reading the article first, thanks! ive just taken a bit of time to read through the article malc . what a god awful mess !. the parent in me , still screams kill jv , but the rational me , thinks that the only option available for the sake of jv and society , is to keep him locked up forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, mel b3 said: ive just taken a bit of time to read through the article malc . what a god awful mess !. the parent in me , still screams kill jv , but the rational me , thinks that the only option available for the sake of jv and society , is to keep him locked up forever. This is exactly why his anonymity should be preserved as well Mel. You are a well considered and rational man, but there are those for which the red mist would descend if they knew who he was and make themselves a murderer destroying their lives and their families lives, that is not a price worth paying for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, mel b3 said: ive just taken a bit of time to read through the article malc . what a god awful mess !. the parent in me , still screams kill jv , but the rational me , thinks that the only option available for the sake of jv and society , is to keep him locked up forever. Let's just say he wasn't responsible for his actions other arguments aside, is it any kinder to keep someone locked up for ever, regardless of who's to blame why not put him out of his misery? 1 minute ago, grrclark said: This is exactly why his anonymity should be preserved as well Mel. You are a well considered and rational man, but there are those for which the red mist would descend if they knew who he was and make themselves a murderer destroying their lives and their families lives, that is not a price worth paying for them. Since he'll be back out again, he should be identified, I'm more concerned with future victims if he hides in the community, able to offend again than his rights, or people who rightly or wrongly can't control themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: Let's just say he wasn't responsible for his actions other arguments aside, is it any kinder to keep someone locked up for ever, regardless of who's to blame why not put him out of his misery? im not saying that he wasnt responsible at all . go and read the article that henry d has posted . the whole sad story is just one god awful heartbreaking mess from the very first minute up until now. the death penalty is not an option , and i really cant see that changing any time soon , the only realistic option is to keep him locked away , for the sake of everyone. im a parent , my natural reaction to any child killer , is to slaughter them instantly(the same reaction as most other parents) , but , that just isnt one of the options . i often ask myself awkward questions , its my way of calibrating my own moral compass . ive just asked myself what it would be like to be the father of james bulger , and the father of john venables , neither scenario has a happy ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 25 minutes ago, grrclark said: This is exactly why his anonymity should be preserved as well Mel. You are a well considered and rational man, but there are those for which the red mist would descend if they knew who he was and make themselves a murderer destroying their lives and their families lives, that is not a price worth paying for them. youre quite correct graham . i can see no good answers to any of the whole case , just less bad options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, mel b3 said: im not saying that he wasnt responsible at all . go and read the article that henry d has posted . the whole sad story is just one god awful heartbreaking mess from the very first minute up until now. the death penalty is not an option , and i really cant see that changing any time soon , the only realistic option is to keep him locked away , for the sake of everyone. im a parent , my natural reaction to any child killer , is to slaughter them instantly(the same reaction as most other parents) , but , that just isnt one of the options . i often ask myself awkward questions , its my way of calibrating my own moral compass . ive just asked myself what it would be like to be the father of james bulger , and the father of john venables , neither scenario has a happy ending. Good post, I can't really disagree with any of it, the only thing I would say, is almost all offenders will have a similar situation in that they come from broken homes ect, most paedophiles have been abused themselves before becoming the abuser, that doesn't change the fact they're dangerous and I say break the cycle and execute those who are guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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