Trophy hunting

[Delwint]

On BBC 4 at 9pm titled “ trophy the big game hunting controversy” 

A look at big game hunting, breeding and conservation. May well be worth a look!! 

Delwint 

[Scully]

I didn’t see it all, but it seemed to be well presented and informative. 

[beanieboy]

Been a shooter since a lad, but don't see how shooting an elephant that's barely a stones throw away, presents any sort of challenge. Same with the guy shooting crocs swimming only yards away in a muddy pond. Then there was the guy who waited for a lion to return to a carcass left for it....he give it 'dixie' from about 30 yards. Great shots these guys.

[haynes]

It did seem to me, a bit like shooting a rabbit in a hutch. 

The man who shot the croc made a right mess of it. Shot twice in the man made muddy puddle, then had to give it a final one when on the bank. 

Not easy viewing. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, beanieboy said:

Been a shooter since a lad, but don't see how shooting an elephant that's barely a stones throw away, presents any sort of challenge. Same with the guy shooting crocs swimming only yards away in a muddy pond. Then there was the guy who waited for a lion to return to a carcass left for it....he give it 'dixie' from about 30 yards. Great shots these guys.

It’s not my cup of tea either, but it’s not about the hunting or the  challenge; it’s about the trophy. Hence the thread title.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Scully

[CharlieT]

16 minutes ago, Scully said:

It’s not my cup of tea either, but it’s not about the thehunring challenge; it’s about the trophy. Hence the thread title.

Exactly.

The program did, in my view at least, address the issue in a grounded and factual way. It really did demonstrate how the income from trophy hunting can benefit the long term survival of the various species and benefit the local community. 

I don't really see the difference between the shooting depicted in the program to shooting wild boar with night vision over a feeding station, fallow deer in a deer park or for that matter deer from a high seat as we do in the UK.

We must be careful that we don't fall into the "cute, fluffy bunny" syndrome that we so often accuse those opposed to our sport. 

I get good stags on my land, often with very good horns indeed and you would be surprised how many people, over the years, have offered me big money to put them on one. No challenge involved, just trophy hunting, pure and simple. They can never understand when I decline their 4 figure offers, preferring to see them out and about rather than a wedge of cash in my pocket.

[welshwarrior]

I didn’t see it but have any of you ever tried to get very close to a wild elephant?  You seem to be condemning them for getting close, but I get as close as I can to deer or rabbits before I shoot them it’s called stalking also I try to decoy pigeons in really close to my hide so I can shoot them, it makes for cleaner more successful shots or should we start shootings things as far out as we can?

 

 It’ll be quicker require less skill and sometimes be just as successful as using field craft to get as close as possible.  

[bluesj]

Just watched it one thing I noticed was that those against it could not really come up with any argument other that I don't  like it so it should be stopped! They didn't seam to care that giving the animals a value in money is helping protect them

And the lawyer arguing against lifting the ban on selling rhino horn was even worse! I don't think she understood that you don't have to kill the rhino to get its horn!

[Novice]

8 hours ago, beanieboy said:

Been a shooter since a lad, but don't see how shooting an elephant that's barely a stones throw away, presents any sort of challenge. Same with the guy shooting crocs swimming only yards away in a muddy pond. Then there was the guy who waited for a lion to return to a carcass left for it....he give it 'dixie' from about 30 yards. Great shots these guys.

I'd suggest the challenge is getting undetected into a position a stones throw away from an animal that is quite capable of killing you in the blink of an eye. To be honest, I thought that was a fairly lengthy shot from what I understand of elephant hunting, but camera angles can be deceptive. 

[SpringDon]

The sounds coming from the elephant as it seemed to be left to die for some minutes will haunt me for sometime.

but I didn’t see how the rhino calf that made equally heart breaking noises was relevant since it’s mother was poached not trophy shot. Perhaps they should address the demand for such things instead.

[Lord v]

Not seen the show - however the financial argument for trophy hunting (especially the big 5) is strong, if counter intuitive.

Essentially hunting means the animal has more monetary value alive than dead, as it has to be alive to hunt it. If hunting is banned the only monetary value the animal has is when its dead in the form of black market sales of hides etc. If you own a reserve or are caring for one and are dealing with armed poachers; under which scenario are you going to try the hardest?

Of course you can argue the morality of only caring about the monetary value of an animal - but the fact is that it is currently secondary to the monetary... 

[Tadorna]

9 hours ago, SpringDon said:

The sounds coming from the elephant as it seemed to be left to die for some minutes will haunt me for sometime.

but I didn’t see how the rhino calf that made equally heart breaking noises was relevant since it’s mother was poached not trophy shot. Perhaps they should address the demand for such things instead.

Heard of agonal breathing?

[Benthejockey]

I watched it last night. The best point made through the whole piece was by the bloke at the start. No animal has gone extinct whilst it’s had a financial value to farmers. And the skinny old chap talked a lot of sense. The American shooters were a little abrasive especially the one shooting crocodiles. His shooting was **** and shooting crocs in a puddle doesn’t do it for me but you pay your money you take your choice. 

I thought the locals opinion on the elephant was quite funny. That’s not an elephant it’s tiny! Don’t we all try and get as close as we can to everything we shoot when we’re out rifle shooting? I do and none of those things are likely to jump up and eat me or stomp me so sitting in a blind waiting for a baited lion isn’t an issue. And the same with the elephant breathing it’s lasr. What is recommended deer stalking bear practise after shooting a deer? Wait 5 minutes then go and pick it up. That way if you’ve winged it it’s hopefully too stiff to run off or it’s dead. If it wasn’t an over excited American and he’d dropped it, lit a fag and then gone to check it I suspect it would have been completely expired. Don’t forget it was a program for the bbc and they’d have wanted to show the gory bits and put a negative spin on things. 

Now it’s not my cup of tea, I’ve got other things I’d blow £50k on but I can only see it helping preserve African large game. 

[Scully]

36 minutes ago, Benthejockey said:

I watched it last night. The best point made through the whole piece was by the bloke at the start. No animal has gone extinct whilst it’s had a financial value to farmers. And the skinny old chap talked a lot of sense. The American shooters were a little abrasive especially the one shooting crocodiles. His shooting was **** and shooting crocs in a puddle doesn’t do it for me but you pay your money you take your choice. 

I thought the locals opinion on the elephant was quite funny. That’s not an elephant it’s tiny! Don’t we all try and get as close as we can to everything we shoot when we’re out rifle shooting? I do and none of those things are likely to jump up and eat me or stomp me so sitting in a blind waiting for a baited lion isn’t an issue. And the same with the elephant breathing it’s lasr. What is recommended deer stalking bear practise after shooting a deer? Wait 5 minutes then go and pick it up. That way if you’ve winged it it’s hopefully too stiff to run off or it’s dead. If it wasn’t an over excited American and he’d dropped it, lit a fag and then gone to check it I suspect it would have been completely expired. Don’t forget it was a program for the bbc and they’d have wanted to show the gory bits and put a negative spin on things. 

Now it’s not my cup of tea, I’ve got other things I’d blow £50k on but I can only see it helping preserve African large game. 

Good post. 

[grrclark]

I didn't see the show so cannot comment on it, but trophy hunting is one of those issues that cause me to think much more deeply about shooting.

I cannot personally see the appeal or attraction in shooting an animal purely for the trophy value ,or bragging rights, but I accept that when i consider the wider picture my own motivations or feelings towards it are irrelevant.

So long as the animal being shot is not an endangered species and it is killed in the most humane way possible then if that is how folks choose to spend their money that is their choice.  I agree with the arguments around how hunting does make a hugely valuable contribution to other conservation work.

[Benthejockey]

But even if it is an endangered species there isn’t an issue. These game farmers spend millions buying in breeding stock of these endangered species, if to finance the purchase of replacement stock they sell the rights to shoot a knackered old breeding bull then I can’t see the issue. The animal has lived its life hopefully producing many offspring that visits numbers of the endangered jigglypuff, if some daft American wants to pay £350k to come and put him down and the locals get a free bbq out of it i think it’s a hugely positive thing.

What is destroying wild populations and pushing animals to extinction is poaching. The program said 1100 elephants were hunted for trophies last year. That’s $44million in revenue to pay to replace crops villages lose to elephant raids, anti poaching patrols, schools, sanitation, econimic growth. Compare that to the 30000 elephants illegally killed worth $1.2 billion if they’d been legally shot for trophies. Mainly for their ivory but also for bushmeat or because they’re a nuisance. Trophy hunting although possibly distasteful to some is the only thing keeping populations of some endangered animals alive. Once they’re worthless to farmers they will become extinct at the drop of a hat. 

[grrclark]

2 hours ago, Benthejockey said:

But even if it is an endangered species there isn’t an issue. These game farmers spend millions buying in breeding stock of these endangered species, if to finance the purchase of replacement stock they sell the rights to shoot a knackered old breeding bull then I can’t see the issue. The animal has lived its life hopefully producing many offspring that visits numbers of the endangered jigglypuff, if some daft American wants to pay £350k to come and put him down and the locals get a free bbq out of it i think it’s a hugely positive thing.

What is destroying wild populations and pushing animals to extinction is poaching. The program said 1100 elephants were hunted for trophies last year. That’s $44million in revenue to pay to replace crops villages lose to elephant raids, anti poaching patrols, schools, sanitation, econimic growth. Compare that to the 30000 elephants illegally killed worth $1.2 billion if they’d been legally shot for trophies. Mainly for their ivory but also for bushmeat or because they’re a nuisance. Trophy hunting although possibly distasteful to some is the only thing keeping populations of some endangered animals alive. Once they’re worthless to farmers they will become extinct at the drop of a hat. 

My comment about being endangered is probably misplaced, my thoughts were those animals that are not being managed so as to allow sustainable hunting as you describe.

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Benthejockey said:

But even if it is an endangered species there isn’t an issue. These game farmers spend millions buying in breeding stock of these endangered species, if to finance the purchase of replacement stock they sell the rights to shoot a knackered old breeding bull then I can’t see the issue. The animal has lived its life hopefully producing many offspring that visits numbers of the endangered jigglypuff, if some daft American wants to pay £350k to come and put him down and the locals get a free bbq out of it i think it’s a hugely positive thing.

What is destroying wild populations and pushing animals to extinction is poaching. The program said 1100 elephants were hunted for trophies last year. That’s $44million in revenue to pay to replace crops villages lose to elephant raids, anti poaching patrols, schools, sanitation, econimic growth. Compare that to the 30000 elephants illegally killed worth $1.2 billion if they’d been legally shot for trophies. Mainly for their ivory but also for bushmeat or because they’re a nuisance. Trophy hunting although possibly distasteful to some is the only thing keeping populations of some endangered animals alive. Once they’re worthless to farmers they will become extinct at the drop of a hat. 

The old adage of 'if it pay's, it stays' fits well in this instance.