Side by Side Club

[Salopian]

For me this is a very interesting thread and appears to be supported by a good number of enthusiasts.

Would it not be a good idea to organise socials for all us enthusiasts?

I travel regularly to events in the USA where they have an organisation called 'The Vintagers' an historic gun association , each State has its own 'chapter' holding regular meets and shoots. Could we not organise something similar here? Regional SxS enthusiasts and perhaps if it took off a Summertime National?

If there is enough interest I would be happy to organise a day at Oakedge /Shugborough , Stafford . 

[kevin55]

8 minutes ago, Salopian said:

For me this is a very interesting thread and appears to be supported by a good number of enthusiasts.

Would it not be a good idea to organise socials for all us enthusiasts?

I travel regularly to events in the USA where they have an organisation called 'The Vintagers' an historic gun association , each State has its own 'chapter' holding regular meets and shoots. Could we not organise something similar here? Regional SxS enthusiasts and perhaps if it took off a Summertime National?

If there is enough interest I would be happy to organise a day at Oakedge /Shugborough , Stafford . 

Atkin Grant Lang do a Side by Side day every year,  in September I think

[Old Boggy]

Obviously keeping to the Side by Side topic, is there anyone out there that remembers an advert in Shooting Times in the 60s maybe 70s taken out by ASI featuring Patrick Lichfield as an avid user of either the AYA No.1 or No.2 models. Perhaps my memory fails me on this and I thought that I had a copy somewhere but cannot find it. Can someone either put me out of my misery regards memory or come up with something, please. I`ve asked a couple on here with whom it does ring a faint bell but nothing concrete so far. I have emailed ASI and ST, but am not holding my breath on a reply from either.

Many thanks,

OB

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

I have emailed ASI and ST, but am not holding my breath on a reply from either.

In my experience, ASI are pretty good at answering emails.  Don't remember that advert, but I didn't take Shooting Times much (prefer to spend the pennies on cartridges/hardware).

[AYA117]

52 minutes ago, kevin55 said:

Atkin Grant Lang do a Side by Side day every year,  in September I think

Yes they hold The British Side by Side Championship. This year it is on 25th of August. And Churchills hold the European Championship.

 

[Old Boggy]

34 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

In my experience, ASI are pretty good at answering emails.  Don't remember that advert, but I didn't take Shooting Times much (prefer to spend the pennies on cartridges/hardware).

Hopefully I stand to be corrected John. I know that AYA in Spain are really good at answering emails on gun queries. I too used to spend my well earned pennies on cartridges or even reloading them and got ST secondhand from a friend with more money than me.

[FatFreddysCat]

A similar tale.

Before I start I should state that my ancient A.Gale 10g pictured on p11 of this thread has been back to Birmingham for reproof and passed 1200 bar proof.

Homeloaders among us will remember the shortage of Alliant Steel powder a few years ago. I was getting low on powder for my own loads and so bought a couple of boxes of Remington Sportsman 39g (1 3/8 oz) No.2 . The barrel flats are stamped 1 1/2oz and that's what I've always fed the old girl so figured 1 3/8 oz would be fine.

First thing I noticed about the Remingtons was the ferocious recoil. I returned from the marsh with a  bruised cheek, 3 duck for 13 shots and none of them were killed clean. Second time out with the new shells resulted in lots of misses and 4 duck, 1 clean kill, 2 runners and an unusual one that flew on 200yds and then dropped dead. After plucking I noticed that each bird only had one or two hits and that some of the pellets had passed right through the bird.

As JJs Dad did, I patterned a few shots from each barrel (1/4 and 1/2 choke) and was getting open patterns averaging 39% (67 pellets) in a 30" circle at 40yds. The patterns were so open I couldn't tell where the centre was but they looked to be shooting a bit low on my un-scientific sheets of wall paper.

I was sending some homeloads off to the proof house for testing and so included some of the Remingtons. The Remington box said they did 1500fps but I've never believed manufacturers claimed velocities. However, when the results came back they were doing over 1500fps and failed the CIP  velocity upper limit. (Test sheet attached.)

I can only conclude that the high velocity was blowing the pattern apart. Happily, Alliant powders were soon available again,  I was able to revert to my nice slow 1 1/2 oz No 3.

 

 

[AYA117]

4 minutes ago, FatFreddysCat said:

they were doing over 1500fps and failed the CIP  velocity upper limit

Now that is very interesting and a big worry for the importer and anyone selling them. If a gun were to 'fail' you would have grounds ( I would have thought ) for legal action!

[JJsDad]

1 hour ago, FatFreddysCat said:

so bought a couple of boxes of Remington Sportsman 39g (1 3/8 oz) No.2 .

And thats through a 10 bore !  You can imagine what the recoil was like using 1 7/8* oz. through my old Powell which weighed a little over 7 lbs. Two thirds of the way through my test described above I was seriously wishing I hadnt started.

*Note: This was pre non-toxic loads and therefore were lead.

Edited April 30, 2018 by JJsDad

[motty]

2 hours ago, FatFreddysCat said:

A similar tale.

Before I start I should state that my ancient A.Gale 10g pictured on p11 of this thread has been back to Birmingham for reproof and passed 1200 bar proof.

Homeloaders among us will remember the shortage of Alliant Steel powder a few years ago. I was getting low on powder for my own loads and so bought a couple of boxes of Remington Sportsman 39g (1 3/8 oz) No.2 . The barrel flats are stamped 1 1/2oz and that's what I've always fed the old girl so figured 1 3/8 oz would be fine.

First thing I noticed about the Remingtons was the ferocious recoil. I returned from the marsh with a  bruised cheek, 3 duck for 13 shots and none of them were killed clean. Second time out with the new shells resulted in lots of misses and 4 duck, 1 clean kill, 2 runners and an unusual one that flew on 200yds and then dropped dead. After plucking I noticed that each bird only had one or two hits and that some of the pellets had passed right through the bird.

As JJs Dad did, I patterned a few shots from each barrel (1/4 and 1/2 choke) and was getting open patterns averaging 39% (67 pellets) in a 30" circle at 40yds. The patterns were so open I couldn't tell where the centre was but they looked to be shooting a bit low on my un-scientific sheets of wall paper.

I was sending some homeloads off to the proof house for testing and so included some of the Remingtons. The Remington box said they did 1500fps but I've never believed manufacturers claimed velocities. However, when the results came back they were doing over 1500fps and failed the CIP  velocity upper limit. (Test sheet attached.)

I can only conclude that the high velocity was blowing the pattern apart. Happily, Alliant powders were soon available again,  I was able to revert to my nice slow 1 1/2 oz No 3.

 

 

I don't think the open chokes would have helped with your patterns, but a slower load would have also benefited you.

2 hours ago, AYA117 said:

Now that is very interesting and a big worry for the importer and anyone selling them. If a gun were to 'fail' you would have grounds ( I would have thought ) for legal action!

I very much doubt legal action could be considered for a gun damaged by a cartridge travelling 8ft per second faster than advertised. Hardly worrying.

[Feltwad]

3 hours ago, Salopian said:

For me this is a very interesting thread and appears to be supported by a good number of enthusiasts.

Would it not be a good idea to organise socials for all us enthusiasts?

I travel regularly to events in the USA where they have an organisation called 'The Vintagers' an historic gun association , each State has its own 'chapter' holding regular meets and shoots. Could we not organise something similar here? Regional SxS enthusiasts and perhaps if it took off a Summertime National?

If there is enough interest I would be happy to organise a day at Oakedge /Shugborough , Stafford . 

Yes I think it would be good to have social sxs events  similar too the Perrins  club  ,the only fault would be that they are all held in the south and midlands. With little interest  there is nothing like this in the north- east and the borders .

Feltwad

[AYA117]

1 hour ago, JJsDad said:

And thats through a 10 bore !  You can imagine what the recoil was like using 1 7/8* oz. through my old Powell which weighed a little over 7 lbs. Two thirds of the way through my test described above I was seriously wishing I hadnt started.

*Note: This was pre non-toxic loads and therefore were lead.

I used some Federal 2oz loads years ago, out of a Zabala and the recoil was so fierce it actually made your teeth hurt, had to only use them in the left barrel and Fiocchi 1 3/4oz in the right, the Fiocchi felt like game loads in comparison. Again these were lead loads.

[JJsDad]

9 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

Federal 2oz loads years ago, out of a Zabala and the recoil was so fierce it actually made your teeth hurt,

Which just goes to show the yanks are all tough so & so`s, like John Wayne.

 

12 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

the Fiocchi felt like game loads in comparison.

And the Italians are all a bit timid and dont like getting a bit of slap from the recoil !

[AYA117]

2 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

And the Italians are all a bit timid and dont like getting a bit of slap from the recoil !

I did have a double discharge once from the Fiocchi, it was a bit hefty on the shoulder.

[AYA117]

[AYA117]

My AYA No2, factory built 3" Magnum

[JJsDad]

22 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

My AYA No2, factory built 3" Magnum

You may well find that came into the country as a result of an order by John Forsey under what was in the 1970s - 80s known as  "Gentry`s"; now "John Forsey Guns".

He was, back in the 70s and 80s the prime local source for all things wildfowling, and probably still is. He got an agreement with ASI that if he ordered a minimum order of I believe around 20 No: 2 3in. chambered guns, that AYA would build them and deliver through ASI. I have seen and handled one down here in my neck of the woods that came through John.

Always raised a smile when I went into his shop, as behind the counter was a very large sign that read:  "Wildfowling Spoken Here".

Absolutely super guy; shop is invariably like a total mad house, but he has time for everyone, doesnt matter if you are buying a tin of oil or eyeing up a £5000 gun. Dont expect a return phone call if you ring because the phone never seems to stop. Real "Old School" gun shop rather than some of the rather posh versions that exist and have little interest unless you are waving several thousand around.

[Pushandpull]

As I recall, I was told that 12 were imported. When I phoned up some time after advertising had stopped, I was told "we don't have any more but we do have a chap over there......"  After couple of calls the said chap to returned to the U.K. with  a No. 2 magnum for me.

I kept it until I really badly needed a Mannlicher Luxus .308.

[JJsDad]

12 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

I was told that 12 were imported.

I wouldnt argue with your figure, I am quoting from a conversation I had with John some 25 years ago. I know he kept the numbers down to whatever AYA would accept as a minimum order and he subsequently sold the lot. But to order more at the time could have run the serious risk of brand new stock that he couldnt sell.

I did look at a well used (and abused) one for sale locally about 4 years ago, but the seller had put to high a premium on it for what it was.

[Old Boggy]

1 hour ago, JJsDad said:

You may well find that came into the country as a result of an order by John Forsey under what was in the 1970s - 80s known as  "Gentry`s"; now "John Forsey Guns".

He was, back in the 70s and 80s the prime local source for all things wildfowling, and probably still is. He got an agreement with ASI that if he ordered a minimum order of I believe around 20 No: 2 3in. chambered guns, that AYA would build them and deliver through ASI. I have seen and handled one down here in my neck of the woods that came through John.

Always raised a smile when I went into his shop, as behind the counter was a very large sign that read:  "Wildfowling Spoken Here".

Absolutely super guy; shop is invariably like a total mad house, but he has time for everyone, doesnt matter if you are buying a tin of oil or eyeing up a £5000 gun. Dont expect a return phone call if you ring because the phone never seems to stop. Real "Old School" gun shop rather than some of the rather posh versions that exist and have little interest unless you are waving several thousand around.

I am looking forward to my visit to John`s shop on Friday primarily to pick up some 16g steel cartridges that he has managed to obtain, but also to have a look at and hopefully photograph the T.Bland `The Brent` for Old Farrier who is interested in purchasing it. Only hoping that John is there as we always manage to have a good old chinwag. As you say, he is indeed a super guy.

OB

6 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

Hopefully I stand to be corrected John. I know that AYA in Spain are really good at answering emails on gun queries. I too used to spend my well earned pennies on cartridges or even reloading them and got ST secondhand from a friend with more money than me.

I do indeed stand corrected John. ASI have emailed back to confirm that Patrick Lichfield did feature on an AYA advertisement but unfortunately and understandably, they are unable to reproduce it without his permission, which of course they are now unlikely to obtain.

However, it does prove that my little grey cell is still working and that I have yet to fall into full senility !!

OB

[AYA117]

2 hours ago, JJsDad said:

You may well find that came into the country as a result of an order by John Forsey under what was in the 1970s - 80s known as  "Gentry`s"; now "John Forsey Guns".

He was, back in the 70s and 80s the prime local source for all things wildfowling, and probably still is. He got an agreement with ASI that if he ordered a minimum order of I believe around 20 No: 2 3in. chambered guns, that AYA would build them and deliver through ASI. I have seen and handled one down here in my neck of the woods that came through John.

Always raised a smile when I went into his shop, as behind the counter was a very large sign that read:  "Wildfowling Spoken Here".

Absolutely super guy; shop is invariably like a total mad house, but he has time for everyone, doesnt matter if you are buying a tin of oil or eyeing up a £5000 gun. Dont expect a return phone call if you ring because the phone never seems to stop. Real "Old School" gun shop rather than some of the rather posh versions that exist and have little interest unless you are waving several thousand around.

Thank you for that, I kind of guessed it must have been a special order, like you I have only ever seen 1 other for sale and that was 20 years ago and I missed it, this one came up for sale last year and I did not miss this one  It handles very well and 3" Tungsten Matrix are surprising mild to shoot out of it. It is now my 'go to' gun for everything, that said I intend to use the 220 Hammer gun as my corvid gun!

 

 

23 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

I do indeed stand corrected John. ASI have emailed back to confirm that Patrick Lichfield did feature on an AYA advertisement but unfortunately and understandably, they are unable to reproduce it without his permission, which of course they are now unlikely to obtain.

However, it does prove that my little grey cell is still working and that I have yet to fall into full senility !!

O

That is the advantage of dealing with a family run business, they could teach the likes of Browning Winchester a thing or two. I am glad that neither of us is going mad, so we really do remember an AYA advert with Lord Lichfield, all we have to do now is find a copy of it.

[matone]

9 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

Obviously keeping to the Side by Side topic, is there anyone out there that remembers an advert in Shooting Times in the 60s maybe 70s taken out by ASI featuring Patrick Lichfield as an avid user of either the AYA No.1 or No.2 models. Perhaps my memory fails me on this and I thought that I had a copy somewhere but cannot find it. Can someone either put me out of my misery regards memory or come up with something, please. I`ve asked a couple on here with whom it does ring a faint bell but nothing concrete so far. I have emailed ASI and ST, but am not holding my breath on a reply from either.

Many thanks,

OB

Think it was more the 80`s when Lord Lichfield was in tha adverts tbh.

5 hours ago, AYA117 said:

My AYA No2, factory built 3" Magnum

Remember a few being about in the 80`s with half pistol grip stocks,does yours have that ?

[Howling Hound]

10 hours ago, Salopian said:

For me this is a very interesting thread and appears to be supported by a good number of enthusiasts.

Would it not be a good idea to organise socials for all us enthusiasts?

I travel regularly to events in the USA where they have an organisation called 'The Vintagers' an historic gun association , each State has its own 'chapter' holding regular meets and shoots. Could we not organise something similar here? Regional SxS enthusiasts and perhaps if it took off a Summertime National?

If there is enough interest I would be happy to organise a day at Oakedge /Shugborough , Stafford . 

I have suggested Oakridge so thats two of us. I will be there on Wednesday morning so I may see what Paul could arrange.Great ground, central,close to motorway and trains.

Any one else interested at this stage

[Old farrier]

7 minutes ago, Howling Hound said:

I have suggested Oakridge so thats two of us. I will be there on Wednesday morning so I may see what Paul could arrange.Great ground, central,close to motorway and trains.

Any one else interested at this stage

Good idea but better check ground rules some of my guns don’t work very well with a ounce of 7 shot 

[AYA117]

59 minutes ago, matone said:

Remember a few being about in the 80`s with half pistol grip stocks,does yours have that ?

Yes it does, I think they all had a semi pistol grip stock.

Edited April 30, 2018 by AYA117