Side by Side Club

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

Whilst I have apologised to Anthony for my somewhat abrupt response to the change of Guntrader format, saying all is now OK, I notice that it is when using my PC, but on my iPad, all I get is a blank page. I have requested a further response from Guntrader but have been a little more diplomatic and polite this time. I'm sure that it's me doing something wrong and Anthony will correct the ways of this old technophobe.

OB

But you got a response 

maybe we all walk a little too softly 

tell it as it is 

personaly think it’s just a con to keep you on the treadmill with constant upgrades making your equipment obsolete 

just a thought 

of

[NYorks]

4 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

It has now become a requirement that anyone with a side by side has to post a picture of their gun. Not really, but I'm sure many would like to see your guns, especially that Leech with Damascus barrels. Have you been able to obtain anything of its history from Leech's in Boreham near Chelmsford in Essex ? Not sure whether they still have the records though, but worth a try.

OB

Yes - they were helpful; it first sold in 1905 for £23 on the 25 Sep 05. But they wouldn’t say who they sold it to because if ‘customer confidentiality’ - haha. Right barrel is the choked barrel (impr cylinder right and true cylinder left) - a true driven game gun, handles beautifully and shoots like a dream. Having trouble sending a pic but will try again.

[AYA117]

WOW! Side by Side Club has now had 500 replies in a little over two weeks.

[Mr.C]

And I don't think I've read a crossed word yet? 

[dipper]

There was also a Leech of Oldham gunmaker.Dipper

[button]

May be we should look at selling our guns at the other side of the pond!

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/armas-garbi-shotguns/garbi-black-sable-de-luxe.cfm?gun_id=101021068

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, button said:

May be we should look at selling our guns at the other side of the pond!

Can't see it selling at that price.  The Americans can pay silly money for old 'famous names' (and then sometimes ruin them by lengthening chambers and not reproofing), but Spanish guns are not in fashion there.

Some UK dealers keep a stock in the US with a 'partner' delaer as it is a lucrative market.

[JJsDad]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Can't see it selling at that price.

Just been having a browse through some of the ads on `Guntrader` now I have starter to get the hang of the new search facility & exactly the same can be said for a number of ads from our home grown dealers. Out of curiosity I opened an ad for a Holland & Holland being offered at a shade under £2K. To my amusement, its not a Holland & Holland at all; nor is it one of the versions that they put out under their name (Bowood / Northwood) when they bought up Webley & Scott. This is a Webley 700 that has been `shot & regulated` by Hollands.

While it might have had 1/2 an hour on the pattern plate and a further `tickle up` in their finishing department, the dealer trying to sell it is lumping a bit of a premium on just because it says "Shot & Regulated by" on the barrel. There was a supposedly mint Webley 700 on the PW sale ads a few days ago that didnt appear to have had even a sniff of interest at £600, so I would think the dealer in question is in for a rather long wait.

[JohnfromUK]

The gun market is a funny old place.  For example, an AyA No 1 (basic No 1) is listed at £12,760, or £15,312 with the VAT brand new.  A second hand example can be had from £1,695 at the cheapest, with a good choice under £5K.

Now in my view, guns like this don't 'wear out', and aren't 'out of date models.  It isn't like cars or washing machines, and in my view second hand is as good as new, but at about 15 to 25% of the price.

Similarly Holland and Holland Royal is new (from) £86,000 (2015 prices) - and a second hand one from £6,250

Second hand prices are taken from current UK dealer adverts, and not inspected for condition.

There is no way I would pay £15K for a new AyA No 1, but I would (and have) bought a lower end price second hand one.  (I paid about £3K for mine fitted to me and cased).

Edited May 3, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[wymberley]

21 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Just been having a browse through some of the ads on `Guntrader` now I have starter to get the hang of the new search facility & exactly the same can be said for a number of ads from our home grown dealers. Out of curiosity I opened an ad for a Holland & Holland being offered at a shade under £2K. To my amusement, its not a Holland & Holland at all; nor is it one of the versions that they put out under their name (Bowood / Northwood) when they bought up Webley & Scott. This is a Webley 700 that has been `shot & regulated` by Hollands.

While it might have had 1/2 an hour on the pattern plate and a further `tickle up` in their finishing department, the dealer trying to sell it is lumping a bit of a premium on just because it says "Shot & Regulated by" on the barrel. There was a supposedly mint Webley 700 on the PW sale ads a few days ago that didnt appear to have had even a sniff of interest at £600, so I would think the dealer in question is in for a rather long wait.

The following is my gut feeling and am content to stand corrected if necessary. 30 to 40 years ago, more open chokes were in vogue and SbSs were still popular. Many guns that were not made 'open' were soon 'adjusted'. These now languish on the RFDs' shelves. The advent of the faster cartridge and the adverse affect on patterns that this can have will possibly ensure that that is where they remain. The ones that will - and to a degree already are - sell will be those having a modicum of quality and which escaped the fashion unscathed and can produce the necessary strike rate. I've just been made aware of John's post above and agree with him. Having just done it (although it's not for this club) if I were to look for another gun, I'd do the same again and other than just ensuring that there's enough meat, buy quality at the favourable prices currently available and speak to that nice Mr Teague once again.

Looking at the gun quoted, I'm well chuffed that I bought the one I did at c£300 less - and it's still 1/2 by Full so I retain the options.

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, wymberley said:

The following is my gut feeling and am content to stand corrected if necessary. .........

Interesting - I don't fuss much over choke.  I have several guns, and without getting out my micrometer, couldn't even tell you what the chokes are, other than they a mix of IC, 1/4 and 1/2.

I shoot clays regularly with 3/4 oz (21g, 12 bore) in these fairly open barrels and my gun breaks the clays very nicely (when pointed correctly of course). 

When I shoot game, I use 28g felt wad No 5 or 6, and again - it works very nicely thank you (when pointed right) at the ranges at which I shoot (normal UK small farm shoot).

IF I was sent to the really high birds as found in Devon valleys, I would have a problem, because I do accept that to shoot at the ranges there in anything like a sportsmanlike way, I would need much more 'serious' firepower than an ounce through open(ish) barrels, but I don't do that sort of shooting and very much doubt I could get the pointing right either!

I do in fact have an o/u teagued with a 'full set', (bought like that second hand) - and have never changed the chokes since I bought it, which I think are 1/4 and 1/2, or possibly 1/4 and 1/4.

For what I do - pointing it right is the key, and heavy choking/tight patterns are unnecessary.

[browning123]

29 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Interesting - I don't fuss much over choke.  I have several guns, and without getting out my micrometer, couldn't even tell you what the chokes are, other than they a mix of IC, 1/4 and 1/2.

I shoot clays regularly with 3/4 oz (21g, 12 bore) in these fairly open barrels and my gun breaks the clays very nicely (when pointed correctly of course). 

When I shoot game, I use 28g felt wad No 5 or 6, and again - it works very nicely thank you (when pointed right) at the ranges at which I shoot (normal UK small farm shoot).

IF I was sent to the really high birds as found in Devon valleys, I would have a problem, because I do accept that to shoot at the ranges there in anything like a sportsmanlike way, I would need much more 'serious' firepower than an ounce through open(ish) barrels, but I don't do that sort of shooting and very much doubt I could get the pointing right either!

I do in fact have an o/u teagued with a 'full set', (bought like that second hand) - and have never changed the chokes since I bought it, which I think are 1/4 and 1/2, or possibly 1/4 and 1/4.

For what I do - pointing it right is the key, and heavy choking/tight patterns are unnecessary.

I have been shooting driven pheasants for over forty years, and have always used 1/4 & 1/4 choke and have never felt under choked - even in our deep Welsh valleys, I use 30g no6 which I change to no5 shot in January when the cock birds get stronger and more mature.

I recently purchased a mint Webley & Scott 700 (a real sleeper) with a left cast, and choked 1/4 & 3/4 choke - I have had the cast altered to right hand, and am now contemplating having the left choke bored out to 1/4.

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by browning123

[JJsDad]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

The advent of the faster cartridge and the adverse affect on patterns that this can have will possibly ensure that that is where they remain.

While not disputing your thoughts on high velocities equaling poor patterns, I dont think this is the sole reason for a lot of guns, particularly elderly English guns, with only a smattering of choke, remaining on the dealers racks. Most of my shooting revolves around a walk / stand syndicate where we release Pheasants; I also do a bit of wildfowling plus pigeon and a couple of vermin drives during the spring / summer. I have no interest in clay shooting other than when we have a work party and then have a bit of fun with a couple of traps to finish the day off.

After your remark about faster cartridges I checked two brands of game loads that are sitting on my cabinet (Eley Grand Prix & Hull High Pheasant) and note that the MV is not shown on either !

I am pretty sure that most of my shooting colleagues are in the same boat as myself when it comes to prefered cartridges, if the perceived recoil is greater with particular cartridge than another type they wont buy that again. Secondly, how does the cartridge perform in the field. I can only recall one make of cartridge in the last 10 years or so, that I was happy to give  to our keeper for use in his auto, because the recoil was awful and their patterning was somewhat suspect. While HV loads may impress the clay shooting brigade into buying the latest offerings, I dont think I know one single game shooter who would have a clue what velocity at the muzzel his prefered cartridge is producing.

The biggest concern amongst my shooting friends that influences their choice when buying a gun, either new or secondhand, is the underlying concern about an overall ban on lead shot. With a lot of the older English guns having 2.5in chambers, there is concern that they wont be able to get a suitable steel load and hence the gun becomes effectively worthless. Couple that with fact that the majority of new blood coming into our sport are steered toward an `up & over gun` with a 10 year warranty, 3in chambers and a plastic case, then who is going to opt for the elderly English boxlock at the back of the rack !

Edited May 3, 2018 by JJsDad

[buze]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

The gun market is a funny old place.  For example, an AyA No 1 (basic No 1) is listed at £12,760, or £15,312 with the VAT brand new.  A second hand example can be had from £1,695 at the cheapest, with a good choice under £5K.

Now in my view, guns like this don't 'wear out', and aren't 'out of date models.  It isn't like cars or washing machines, and in my view second hand is as good as new, but at about 15 to 25% of the price.

Similarly Holland and Holland Royal is new (from) £86,000 (2015 prices) - and a second hand one from £6,250

Second hand prices are taken from current UK dealer adverts, and not inspected for condition.

There is no way I would pay £15K for a new AyA No 1, but I would (and have) bought a lower end price second hand one.  (I paid about £3K for mine fitted to me and cased).

Perhaps people who buy these don't plan on selling them, ever -- therefore don't care about the depreciation? Then perhaps their circumstances change (ie, they die or something) and the gun goes on a market with very few buyers in the first place? I always wonder how companies like Boss etc manage to sell guns. I 'handled' a lovely 16 bore at a gun show last year, it was a thing a beauty -- and the nice chap told me it was .... 115K.. <-- you read that correctly, that's the price for a HOUSE. I'd assume they sell 2 or 3 a year perhaps? but I'm likely wrong, and there are probably a lot more people with that sort of money than I can imagine...

Anyway, to be fair (even if I have nothing against AYA of course) if I were to want to blow £15k on a SxS, I would try to find a nice english one...?

But, to be even fairer (!) -- given the state of the market, I'd probably go and buy 15 1k guns instead! :-)

[buze]

4 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

The biggest concern amongst my shooting friends that influences their choice when buying a gun, either new or secondhand, is the underlying concern about an overall ban on lead shot. With a lot of the older English guns having 2.5in chambers, there is concern that they wont be able to get a suitable steel load and hence the gun becomes effectively worthless. Couple that with fact that the majority of new blood coming into our sport are steered toward an `up & over gun` with a 10 year warranty, 3in chambers and a plastic case, then who is going to opt for the elderly English boxlock at the back of the rack !

I think that perhaps a way of 'teaching' everyone is to go out and shoot these SxS out. *Especially* on clays. Go to your local ground and shoot clay with your SxS, and if you do that well quite a few people will start looking at their own O/U or S/A with a raised eyebrow...

I think everyone (apart form people on this topic!) believe that SxS are massively inferior to a modern gun somehow, while the reality is, if you are a good shot, it's probably about 90+% as good as a O/U gun. Now to be honest, I KNOW I can't be /as/ good as with my fancy clay gun, I know for example my hand are in the way for some crossers that requires 'that' sort of lead and you need to shoot 'blind' -- but it's still OK!

 

So my suggestion is, everyone should take the SxS out regularly, dress the part, and beat them at their own game :-) 

For Steel, you have to remember than a LOT of guns are 2 3/4 -- not just SxS's -- Even my modern Guerinni is 2"3/4, and I have to be careful when buying steel to make sure it's not 3". So banning lead would have a much, MUCH wider impact on the gun market than the old english, it'd be devastating for *everyone* really. I think the current status quo is due to the fact that a lot of people are anti plastic wad -- and that steel comes mostly in plastic wad, while a lot of Lead carts come in fiber. Bit of a case of 'choose your poison' :-)

 

[wymberley]

15 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

While not disputing your thoughts on high velocities equaling poor patterns, I dont think this is the sole reason for a lot of guns, particularly elderly English guns, with only a smattering of choke, remaining on the dealers racks. Most of my shooting revolves around a walk / stand syndicate where we release Pheasants; I also do a bit of wildfowling plus pigeon and a couple of vermin drives during the spring / summer. I have no interest in clay shooting other than when we have a work party and then have a bit of fun with a couple of traps to finish the day off.

After your remark about faster cartridges I checked two brands of game loads that are sitting on my cabinet (Eley Grand Prix & Hull High Pheasant) and note that the MV is not shown on either !

I am pretty sure that most of my shooting colleagues are in the same boat as myself when it comes to prefered cartridges, if the perceived recoil is greater with particular cartridge than another type they wont buy that again. Secondly, how does the cartridge perform in the field. I can only recall one make of cartridge in the last 10 years or so, that I was happy to give  to our keeper for use in his auto, because the recoil was awful and their patterning was somewhat suspect. While HV loads may impress the clay shooting brigade into buying the latest offerings, I dont think I know one single game shooter who would have a clue what velocity at the muzzel his prefered cartridge is producing.

The biggest concern amongst my shooting friends that influences their choice when buying a gun, either new or secondhand, is the underlying concern about an overall ban on lead shot. With a lot of the older English guns having 2.5in chambers, there is concern that they wont be able to get a suitable steel load and hence the gun becomes effectively worthless. Couple that with fact that the majority of new blood coming into our sport are steered toward an `up & over gun` with a 10 year warranty, 3in chambers and a plastic case, then who is going to opt for the elderly English boxlock at the back of the rack !

Me,me, me and to blazes with the NTS - especially if it has enough choke to cleanly and consistently kill pigeon at the maximum range of 7 shot in terms of both energy and pattern. Point taken about the more open choke for pheasant at the more traditional ranges.

[JJsDad]

43 minutes ago, buze said:

but I'm likely wrong, and there are probably a lot more people with that sort of money than I can imagine...

I go loading 5 or 6 days in the season on a mixed Pheasant / Partridge shoot. As well as stuffing cartridges, the loaders also act as safety officers & spotters. The safety aspect could be viewed as more important than stuffing, when you see some of these guys getting over excited. These `chaps` are not old money with the odd title, they are mainly from the banking / shipping / insurance sector.

While we get the odd Beretta SO user, or top grade B25, the majority like to follow tradition and go with Purdey or H &H. These are not hand me downs from great grand-dad these are new guns they have been measured for. At the tail end of the season I stuffed for a `chap` who had a pair of David Sinnerton (ex Purdey), while waiting for the drive to start I complimented him on such a beautiful pair of guns; without a hint of bragging he told me he paid £157,000 PLUS VAT !!!.  So there is the money out there, but I doubt these guys are PW members !

Edited May 3, 2018 by JJsDad

[AYA117]

7 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

he paid £157,000 PLUS VAT !!

I thought we agreed you would not tell anyone what I paid for them 

[JJsDad]

3 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

I thought we agreed you would not tell anyone what I paid for them

If you are prepared to tip me what he did, I will not reveal your name

[buze]

Just now, JJsDad said:

If you are prepared to tip me what he did, I will not reveal your name

Enough to buy an AYA? :-)

[AYA117]

3 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

If you are prepared to tip me what he did, I will not reveal your name

That's fair !

[matone]

8 hours ago, buze said:

I think that perhaps a way of 'teaching' everyone is to go out and shoot these SxS out. *Especially* on clays. Go to your local ground and shoot clay with your SxS, and if you do that well quite a few people will start looking at their own O/U or S/A with a raised eyebrow...

I think everyone (apart form people on this topic!) believe that SxS are massively inferior to a modern gun somehow, while the reality is, if you are a good shot, it's probably about 90+% as good as a O/U gun. Now to be honest, I KNOW I can't be /as/ good as with my fancy clay gun, I know for example my hand are in the way for some crossers that requires 'that' sort of lead and you need to shoot 'blind' -- but it's still OK!

 

So my suggestion is, everyone should take the SxS out regularly, dress the part, and beat them at their own game :-) 

For Steel, you have to remember than a LOT of guns are 2 3/4 -- not just SxS's -- Even my modern Guerinni is 2"3/4, and I have to be careful when buying steel to make sure it's not 3". So banning lead would have a much, MUCH wider impact on the gun market than the old english, it'd be devastating for *everyone* really. I think the current status quo is due to the fact that a lot of people are anti plastic wad -- and that steel comes mostly in plastic wad, while a lot of Lead carts come in fiber. Bit of a case of 'choose your poison' :-)

 

S/Sides are the thoroughbreds of shotgun evolution,fine lines and handling qualities,alive in your hands !

 O/u are the working horses ,heavy,slow ,developed to handle work primarily,not to be too frisky ! lol.

I view my own Ovundos as cartridge firing machines primarily......

[JJsDad]

9 hours ago, buze said:

Enough to buy an AYA? :-)

If I was prepared to seek out a well used Yeoman; the SBS version of course; the answer to your question is Yes.

[matone]

Bonhams have an AYA `Premier` self opener in their next auction ,also an No 1 Deluxe with a low estimate on it if anyone fancies a splash !

[JohnfromUK]

That is interesting because the Premier (in UK terminology) is what the rest of the world got as a Senior.  Only about 40 were built.  Mine is pictured earlier on this thread.  These were AyA's 'Purdey clone'.  Few other makers have copied the Beesley patent action (which is what the Purdey is) and the Premier/Senior was AyA's attempt.  It was (in its time very costly, being about 7 x the price of a No 1.

Edit: I have looked at the Bonhams catalogue and the Premier/Senior dates to 1984.

Edited May 4, 2018 by JohnfromUK