Side by Side Club

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Sleeving was invented in the 1960's by a guy named Chris Ashworth who lived in Severn Stoke in Worcestershire, I believe he was the proprietor of the local garage?.......

Almost correct - I think I am right in saying it was Chris Ashthorpe?  It is about 5 miles from me.  I never met him (sadly as I believe he was quite a 'character').

Some history here http://www.worcestergunsmith.co.uk/history.html

Edited June 20, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[panoma1]

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Almost correct - I think I am right in saying it was Chris Ashthorpe?  It is about 5 miles from me.  I never met him (sadly as I believe he was quite a 'character').

You are of course right John, dunno how that happened? Driving through Severn Stoke now towards Worcester on the left, lying back from the road the old garage petrol pump is still there! 

[Old Boggy]

33 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

 

I also have a Daintith. again English and around the same date which has stunning woodwork and engraving. Also has cosmetically beautiful Damascus barrels which are terrible in the bores. Tight on the face but obviously out of proof. I would love to have it sleeved but the the gun is not worth the expense and half it's beauty is its useless barrels.

.

It`s a great shame that the idea of lining barrels (initiated by Teague, I believe) had its faults and is no longer carried out as this was, or would have been the perfect solution to retain those lovely Damascus barrels.

OB

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

It`s a great shame that the idea of lining barrels (initiated by Teague, I believe) had its faults and is no longer carried out as this was, or would have been the perfect solution to retain those lovely Damascus barrels.

OB

There were a number of problems to which they didn't find a solution.  The ones I can remember were mainly concerned with repairing any dents/bulges that occurred.  They were nigh on impossible to repair I believe.  There may have been issues with risks of corrosion between old and new in the long term as well.  It was a nice idea, but had too many risks for them to continue I understand.

[DUNKS]

13 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

It`s a great shame that the idea of lining barrels (initiated by Teague, I believe) had its faults and is no longer carried out as this was, or would have been the perfect solution to retain those lovely Damascus barrels.

OB

It would yes even if it meant only shooting black powder. I cant even hang the damn thing on the wall now.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by DUNKS

[London Best]

Very interesting to read about the inventor of sleeping. I had always believed it originated at Westley Richards. Dunno why I thought that?

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, London Best said:

Very interesting to read about the inventor of sleeping. I had always believed it originated at Westley Richards. Dunno why I thought that?

I think Westley Richards were possibly one of the more 'known names' who offered a sleeving service in the early days.  Chris Ashthorpe wasn't all that far from where Westley Richards were then (Bournbrook in south west Birmingham).  Whether they did the work in house or put it out to Chris Ashthorpe I have no idea.  Chris Ashthorpe was probably not well known outside either the gun trade or local area, where as Westley Richards are a well known name in the shooting world.

[Gunman]

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr Ashthorpe . A He used to come up to the Birmingham trade late afternoon so he could use a parking meter that had time on it just before the traffic wardens knocked off .He once showed me a digital watch he had just  bought at a petrol station and was going to "take it apart when he got home to see how it worked ".

The story was that he had a gun with scrap barrels and was not going to pay the going price to have it re barreled . He also had a Belgium made gun that was built on a mono block so the idea came that why not just fit new tubes into the old lumps . 

He had a long fight with the proof house until it was finally accepted for proof  , there are several declarations from the proof house on this .

Westley Richards became a major player in the sleeving game but the quality was general poor and it was they , as far as I know , who started the tend of engraving the joints to hide the fact that they could be seen . In later years they put their sleeving work out because of this and the fact that more people were more demanding in that the joints should be as invisible  as possible 

Later Hale and Hunt in Birmingham became the main machinists for sleeving with others doing the filing up ribbing etc as had been the way the trade worked . The Birmingham trade also did most of the sleeving work for all the provincial trade and shops .

In the late 1970's early 1980's John foster came into the sleeving business having improved on the machining techniques to the extent it was extremely rare that a sleeved joint was visible. 

Later with the improvement of welding so that the new tubes were welded rather than soldered some disreputable people did pass off sleeved and unproved guns as original  .

Unfortunately with rising costs , wages etc. and the fall in value of older guns   plus the fact that , most the guns that needed sleeving had been sleeved , pushed the cost up further as it was process that was most economic if done in batches rather that one off's .

 I have been involved with sleeving in one way or another since the late 70's and can say that apart from blacking and welding ,best left to the experts ,  I have done every  part of the work from start to finish on guns of all makes , British and Foreign side by side , over and under , drilling's  and singles .

[London Best]

Thank you, Gunman, most interesting.

I had a Rosson gun sleeved at Benjamin Wild’s in about 1970. Cost was £42 inc a new top rib. I always supposed the work was done in house, but knowing now how the trade worked maybe it was put out. I had been quoted as much as £60 elsewhere. I had paid £20 for the gun with scrap barrels in 1969 and sold it in1989 for £650!

[Gunman]

16 hours ago, London Best said:

Thank you, Gunman, most interesting.

I had a Rosson gun sleeved at Benjamin Wild’s in about 1970. Cost was £42 inc a new top rib. I always supposed the work was done in house, but knowing now how the trade worked maybe it was put out. I had been quoted as much as £60 elsewhere. I had paid £20 for the gun with scrap barrels in 1969 and sold it in1989 for £650!

Wilds undertook  the work but at that time would have used Hale and Hunt for the machining as did the rest of the trade .I'm not sure whether  they did their own boring or used Tommy Yates as with blacking  probably  took them to Alf Floyd .

The Birmingham trade was composed of many specialists  barrel filers , stockers , jointers , borer's , backers , machinists , engravers ,actioners ,etc.

As a result some took in work then put it out to others as they took in work from others . It is sometimes  impossible to say who actually did what to any gun that was taken in and parts of a gun could have been in several shops during its stay , some times at the same time .

[Old Boggy]

12 minutes ago, Gunman said:

Wilds undertook  the work but at that time would have used Hale and Hunt for the machining as did the rest of the trade .I'm not sure whether  they did their own boring or used Tommy Yates as with blacking  probably  took them to Alf Floyd .

The Birmingham trade was composed of many specialists  barrel filers , stockers , jointers , borer's , backers , machinists , engravers ,actioners ,etc.

As a result some took in work then put it out to others as they took in work from others . It is sometimes  impossible to say who actually did what to any gun that was taken in and parts of a gun could have been in several shops during its stay , some times at the same time .

Thanks for that information, Gunman. Reports of your experience in the gun trade are always most interesting and something not always obtainable from the various books written on the subject. I did try to find out when my old Woodward, The Automatic push forward underlever was sleeved by Wilds (having the 'BW' in a lozenge stamp), but never received a reply. From what you have said, I guess if out workers were used, then it is likely that full records would not have been kept.

OB

[Gunman]

No one kept records other than the required registers ,many of these were not always up to the mark . One well know firm had over 150 "register offences" when the police did their annual check. 

The normal proceda was that when work was done an in voice was written and you paid up at the end of the week in cash .It was possible that by Friday night you had had the same notes in your hands more than once  .. So apart from your cash book there would be no records of who did what and when other than monies paid  . Work/order notes usualy written on a duplicate book or scrap  of paper , literally , the back of an envelope or similar with your rubber name stamp .The Birmingham trade was not know for spending money if they didn't have to .

[London Best]

Absolutely fascinating stuff, thank you.

[DUNKS]

Thank you for the information. It's nice "also important" that this sort of information is passed on and not lost in time as so much word of mouth history is.

[panoma1]

Ben Wild also briefly had a retail outlet in Bristol Road, Northfield.....he could often be found in the Black Horse pub in Northfield.........he liked a whisky or three! Lol!

[Old Boggy]

2 hours ago, DUNKS said:

Thank you for the information. It's nice "also important" that this sort of information is passed on and not lost in time as so much word of mouth history is.

Totally agree. Gunman should write a book of his experiences (in the gun trade, that is), if he hasn`t already done so.

OB

[DUNKS]

9 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

Totally agree. Gunman should write a book of his experiences (in the gun trade, that is), if he hasn`t already done so.

OB

I would be the first to buy one.

[simcgunner]

I recently added two sets of barrels to my favorite shotgun. Finding a set that you can strike to your action and fore -end is time consuming. converting the barrels from extractor to ejectors was not to difficult. after test firing the operation of the ejectors I had the barrels engraved to match. now I have a very versatile gun with 32 inch full choked barrels 30 inch barrels choked for sporting clays and a set of 28 inch barrels choked for Skeet. stocking the gun to my fit and I have an almost bespoke shotgun on a shoestring budget.

Edited June 24, 2019 by simcgunner

[Gunman]

Parker ?

[Konor]

Maybe a Fox ??

[simcgunner]

AH FOX.

Edited June 24, 2019 by simcgunner

[Old farrier]

Best to add this one to the club 

 

[Penelope]

23 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Best to add this one to the club 

 

Show off!

[London Best]

Didya buyit?

[London Best]

I see from your other post you did!!!

more details please, age, any known history. You can’t just buy a Purdey like it was a machine made modern thing from anywhere, you (we) need to know all about it, please.