JohnfromUK Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: Henrey d Reoffending rates have gone up drastically since our care bear prison system, it's right that no prison system has ever stopped reoffending which is why for the worst offenders we should bring back the death penalty or warehouse them cheaply, rehabilitation doesn't work for hardened offenders, it should be focused on the young and non habitual offenders before they go too far. A logical path from there would be a two tier system; Tier one, for 1st time offenders. A regime much like now, perhaps with better training facilities etc., but greater discipline - i.e. no smoking, no drugs, no mobile phones, no smashing up cells ......... those breaking these rules go to tier two. Tier two, for repeat and multiple offenders, and fist time offenders for some serious crimes (inc. terrorism, murder). A HARD regime ........ designed to be a strong deterrent. NO privileges, no TV, limited recreation, only basic comforts. Sentences here should be 'short and sharp' for 1st time in second tier, and longer for anyone who repeats. Just an idea, but may work quite well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny705 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 This is not going away though is it? Unless cap is put on the children you are allowed to have if you are never going to work it will just get worse and worse the next generation of these kids is going to be bad – their Grandparents are not likely to have even worked. I might be pretty simplistic and I see things very black and white - for a hypothetical example: I love dogs- have one Staffy , feed him the most expensive food and occasionally wedged out loads of money for vets. If went and bought 9 dogs I could not afford to look after them financially or indeed walk them without help – would people help pay me to feed them pay vet bills? If they went round attacking loads of other dogs, would people feel sorry for me because let’s face it controller 9 staffys would be pretty difficult would it not? So it’s not MY fault. No, I would say most people would be like you’re a fool, why the hell should we pay for your selfish stupidity- you clearly knew you would have problems by having so many you need to except some responsibility? But it’s MY right I cry I love my dogs and I WILL have as many as I want! Substitute the dogs above for children and all of a sudden it’s totally different? It’s just madness-if these dysfunctional parents cannot look after one child is a pretty forgone conclusion they will struggle with loads more-it’s just basic logic. If I had children I would Love them– I would try and bring them up with all MY faults ironed out – to teach them, watch them grow and flower into something beautiful –is that not the point of wanting children? But for the many women I know over the years none of above it’s just an easy life choice. Some cannot be bothered to take them to school as they cannot cope, Social Services get involved and do you know what happens? They start picking the kids up in a taxi and take them. Now that is although annoying is what the kids need-But problem is the same woman can still keep having loads more – it’s wrong on so many levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: Henrey d Reoffending rates have gone up drastically since our care bear prison system... Rubbish, "This gives an overall proven re-offending rate of 26.2% ; this rate has remained fairly stable, fluctuating between around 26% and 28% since 2003." same link as above. Edited August 16, 2018 by henry d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: A logical path from there would be a two tier system; Tier one, for 1st time offenders. A regime much like now, perhaps with better training facilities etc., but greater discipline - i.e. no smoking, no drugs, no mobile phones, no smashing up cells ......... those breaking these rules go to tier two. Tier two, for repeat and multiple offenders, and fist time offenders for some serious crimes (inc. terrorism, murder). A HARD regime ........ designed to be a strong deterrent. NO privileges, no TV, limited recreation, only basic comforts. Sentences here should be 'short and sharp' for 1st time in second tier, and longer for anyone who repeats. Just an idea, but may work quite well? Absaloutly spot on, it is the very conclusion I came to after many years, if your not involved in the criminal justice system im impressed you came to that conclusion without witnessing it first hand. Prison works well for first time offenders but is treated as a joke by those who are habitually in and out, they all know their way around the system, they all know each other and they have absaloutly no fear of it, something needs to change if we're ever to break the cycle, there's an old saying, sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind, if a hard system stopped people reoffending it would be a positive thing and prevent huge amounts of human suffering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 I think the figures speak for themselves if you have a mind to see it. Adult offenders released from custody The proven re-offending rate for adult offenders released from custody in April 2013 to March 2014 was 45.8%. This represents a small increase of 0.7 percentage points compared to the previous 12 months and a fall of 5.8 percentage points since 2003. Since 2004, the overall rate for those released from custody has remained relatively stable at around 45% to 49%; The rate for those released from short sentences has been consistently higher compared to those released from longer sentences. Adults who served sentences of less than 12 months re-offended at a rate of 59.8%, compared to 33.9% for those who served determinate sentences of 12 months or more. The trends for those released from short and long sentences have both remained broadly flat since 2005 and are consistent with the overall trend. Juvenile offenders Around 42,000 juvenile offenders were cautioned, convicted or released from custody in April 2013 to March 2014 and around 16,000 of them committed a re-offence. This gives a proven re-offending rate of 38.0%, up 1.9 percentage points from the previous 12 months and an increase of 3.8 percentage points since 2003, the cohort has fallen by around 69% since 2003. Around 50,000 proven re-offences were committed by juveniles over the one year follow-up period. Those that re-offended committed on average 3.12 reoffences each, the same as for adults. Juvenile offenders with 11 or more previous offences have a higher re-offending rate than those with no previous offences – 74.3% compared to 24.2%. Juvenile offenders released from custody The proven re-offending rate for juvenile offenders released from custody in April 2013 to March 2014 was 67.1%. You use the underlined to make out crime has reduced, but the graphs in the report clearly show it hasnt, and they only go up to 2014, I wonder what they are now , taking the recent surge in crime in the capital ? 2 minutes ago, henry d said: Rubbish, "This gives an overall proven re-offending rate of 26.2% ; this rate has remained fairly stable, fluctuating between around 26% and 28% since 2003." same link as above. Which flies in the face of the above quote from the same report, does it not ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, henry d said: Rubbish, "This gives an overall proven re-offending rate of 26.2% ; this rate has remained fairly stable, fluctuating between around 26% and 28% since 2003." same link as above. Yes since 2003, look before that I.e 1997 when the human rights act came in totally softening the prison system. 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: I think the figures speak for themselves if you have a mind to see it. Adult offenders released from custody The proven re-offending rate for adult offenders released from custody in April 2013 to March 2014 was 45.8%. This represents a small increase of 0.7 percentage points compared to the previous 12 months and a fall of 5.8 percentage points since 2003. Since 2004, the overall rate for those released from custody has remained relatively stable at around 45% to 49%; The rate for those released from short sentences has been consistently higher compared to those released from longer sentences. Adults who served sentences of less than 12 months re-offended at a rate of 59.8%, compared to 33.9% for those who served determinate sentences of 12 months or more. The trends for those released from short and long sentences have both remained broadly flat since 2005 and are consistent with the overall trend. Juvenile offenders Around 42,000 juvenile offenders were cautioned, convicted or released from custody in April 2013 to March 2014 and around 16,000 of them committed a re-offence. This gives a proven re-offending rate of 38.0%, up 1.9 percentage points from the previous 12 months and an increase of 3.8 percentage points since 2003, the cohort has fallen by around 69% since 2003. Around 50,000 proven re-offences were committed by juveniles over the one year follow-up period. Those that re-offended committed on average 3.12 reoffences each, the same as for adults. Juvenile offenders with 11 or more previous offences have a higher re-offending rate than those with no previous offences – 74.3% compared to 24.2%. Juvenile offenders released from custody The proven re-offending rate for juvenile offenders released from custody in April 2013 to March 2014 was 67.1%. You use the underlined to make out crime has reduced, but the graphs in the report clearly show it hasnt, and they only go up to 2014, I wonder what they are now , taking the recent surge in crime in the capital ? Which flies in the face of the above quote from the same report, does it not ?? Spot on For the record, I happen to know a thing or two about prison and have witnessed the system first hand for many years, so I do know what I'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 The most effective sentence to date was the IPP sentence, it has since been banned as it was against prisoners human rights, it was reserved for only the most serious offenders who were deemed dangourous to the public and they were only released once they were assessed to be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: The most effective sentence to date was the IPP sentence, it has since been banned as it was against prisoners human rights, it was reserved for only the most serious offenders who were deemed dangourous to the public and they were only released once they were assessed to be safe. Always made me wonder why a Criminal has more important Human Rights than the Victim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Always made me wonder why a Criminal has more important Human Rights than the Victim! Because we live in a liberalist, snowflake society, run by people who have no grasp of 'real life' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Oh yes, the Henry's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 19 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I think the figures speak for themselves if you have a mind to see it. "Juvenile offenders Around 42,000 juvenile offenders were cautioned, convicted or released from custody in April 2013 to March 2014 and around 16,000 of them committed a re-offence. This gives a proven re-offending rate of 38.0%, up 1.9 percentage points from the previous 12 months and an increase of 3.8 percentage points since 2003, the cohort has fallen by around 69% since 2003. " You use the underlined to make out crime has reduced, but the graphs in the report clearly show it hasnt, and they only go up to 2014, I wonder what they are now , taking the recent surge in crime in the capital ? No I didn`t, tightchoke said " Henry it isn't working ... There simply are not enough of you and your type to do the job. " and as I work in youth intervention it is working! If there had not been a reduction in youth reoffending since 2003 then how many more would be in the prison system? (No it isn`t all down to me or others in the youth work sectors, before anyone starts) 6 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Oh yes, the Henry's! Better that than a hang em high Gammon I suppose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, henry d said: No I didn`t, tightchoke said " Henry it isn't working ... There simply are not enough of you and your type to do the job. " and as I work in youth intervention it is working! If there had not been a reduction in youth reoffending since 2003 then how many more would be in the prison system? (No it isn`t all down to me or others in the youth work sectors, before anyone starts) I'm certainly not knocking youth offending intervention, it's about the only worth while work, once serious offenders reach adulthood it's almost always too late and the money wasted on them would be better spent elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 32 minutes ago, henry d said: No I didn`t, tightchoke said " Henry it isn't working ... There simply are not enough of you and your type to do the job. " and as I work in youth intervention it is working! If there had not been a reduction in youth reoffending since 2003 then how many more would be in the prison system? (No it isn`t all down to me or others in the youth work sectors, before anyone starts) It might work in your opinion, in your little corner of the world. But like I say ,the figures speak for themselves, and the best bit, the figures are whats reported, and the prison stats are just those that got caught, and convicted. What is it? 9 out of 10 burglaries in larger cities go unsolved, street crime is out of control ,and has been for years. Yet you are old enough to know it wasnt like this 20 -30 years ago, and you still try and say crime has got better ?! You advocate prevention and a gentle hand, yet your own eyes should be able to clearly see it hasnt worked. Someone mentions harsher sentencing and a sterner approach, and you leap to the defence of the criminals to explain why its not really their fault. Of course its their fault, we make choices, from a very early age. And trying to pass the buck has got us where we are today, a system that puts 40 grand a year into making criminals comfortable and making sure their human rights arent infringed, whilst leaving their victims to ROT, in every sense of the word. Thats why you can never win this argument, because we all have been, or will be, and that includes you, a victim. A victim whose voice is never listened to, the impact on our lives not taken into consideration except for an occasional summing up in court. Some with life sentences of injury, mental trauma, and terrible memories that they carry with them to their graves. Meanwhile the state we pay for nurtures the criminals ,rapists and low lives, thinking they can be 'saved' Your own supplied government stats say it doesnt work at the present , so you say less prison, not more. Why not try a new way, what is there to lose? Or cant you stand to see criminals lives disturbed , you can only be nice for so long before the cracks start to show. And the cracks are surely there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, henry d said: Better that than a hang em high Gammon I suppose? Oh Henry, grow up and stop slinging silly childish names about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deker Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 32 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Oh Henry, grow up and stop slinging silly childish names about! I think he's just trolling for effect now, no-one can be that blinkered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Not an easy one this. As usual there are no definitive black and whites but masses of greys. There are instances of cases where the hard style of treatment hasn't worked but adopting the softly softly approach as a last resort has, even of offenders whom have killed, but at what point is the intervention made, how are individuals or groups targeted and why some opposed to others? Who merits worthiness and who doesn't? I"m not saying the attempt shouldn't be made, but have we the resources, the skills and the time? What if it all turns out to be a waste of time and those resources are wasted? How do we know that recorded reductions in crime are due to these interventions and not something else? Who is going to risk losing funding by claiming otherwise? Cynical I know, but I've done a bit of living. ? I don't for a second believe that sociopaths, psychopaths or paeudophiles (spelling) can be targeted for this type of treatment but can see how it could work in those environments where gang culture is rife, but not the above or simply unsociable behaviour. We just don't have the resources or expertise for all, although I'm sure there are many out there doing their best with the resources they have, and sometimes they succeed and sometimes not. We see examples of it featured on the news on a regular basis. Getting away from the 'I can't be bothered to look for a job', and 'working for a living is a mugs game' and the benefits system as a way of life mindset, and all that that mindset entails, is a huge problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Quote Prison works well for first time offenders but is treated as a joke by those who are habitually in and out, they all know their way around the system, they all know each other and they have absaloutly no fear of it, Youth that are beyond help aren't bothered about prison, they make more money inside than out & look forward to returning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXnMyd4ATzw https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-07-24/prison-channel-4-tv-time-channel-documentary-durham-prison/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Bazooka Joe said: Youth that are beyond help aren't bothered about prison, they make more money inside than out & look forward to returning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXnMyd4ATzw https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-07-24/prison-channel-4-tv-time-channel-documentary-durham-prison/ Totally agree, there are some who start serious crime at a very young age and the fact remains, once criminals have got into serious crime, most offenders are far beyond any help, whatever age that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Scully - decent post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Scully - decent post. Thank you. I have no idea what I'm talking about really, and have no answers, but find the subject interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 I have only the one answer - harsher punishment and make it a genuine deterrent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Gordon R said: I have only the one answer - harsher punishment and make it a genuine deterrent. Yes, I can agree with this also. I think people fundamentally know the difference between right and wrong, and I would suggest we all have the freedom to choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) "Prison should be a mill for grinding rouges honest" ? Edited August 16, 2018 by 12gauge82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) On 16/08/2018 at 12:50, Rewulf said: Because we live in a liberalist, snowflake society, run by people who have no grasp of 'real life' On 16/08/2018 at 12:52, TIGHTCHOKE said: Oh yes, the Henry's! On 16/08/2018 at 14:02, TIGHTCHOKE said: Oh Henry, grow up and stop slinging silly childish names about! Edited August 17, 2018 by henry d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 32 minutes ago, henry d said: You do like to add 2+2 and come up with something like 1037483929377499273748392733682920017 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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