Crime and Punishment in the snowflake age

[panoma1]

Some of these yobs are arrogant showoffs who think they're 'ard! The obvious way to change their ways is humiliate them........public birching would be worth consideration!....instead, society gives them punishments which they turn into a badge of honour!........And maintains their "'ard man" image!

[Sha Bu Le]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

When something is clearly not working the obvious thing to do is to consider changing the approach?

no?

am I missing something?

Fraid so Vince and that is certain sections of our community can't see they are doing anything wrong.  Snowflakes, PC muppets and general bunny hugger types who have too much influence with politicos who listen to them. They are like the monkey that lifts a rock and sees a snake beneath it. Promptly faints, when recovered goes back to the rock and lifts it. Snake still there monkey faints again. Recovers goes back to rock snake still there monkey faints yet again. 

Next time it seems to get the message and gives the rock a body swerve. This lot (above) will get the message eventually, what it will cost the country in terms of people dead and injured who knows. There is also a financial cost of ??  and something that may lead to change i.e. political credibility.

However this may be a forlorn hope, we've had barely credible governments for years ngedthey don't seem to learn.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Sha Bu Le
changed ****** for muppets didn't think pretts was considered a swear word.

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Henry, the punishment IS the prevention ,if you fear it.

Lack of fear of the punishment handed out these days, is the biggest driver of crime.

You can blame poverty ,boredom ,drugs, family life, or abuse. But if no one fears the law and justice system, NOTHING is going to stop them doing that crime until they do fear the consequences of their actions.

Exactly prevent by deterrent.

If there is no fear of consequences then there is no deterrence, leading to no prevention.

[Vince Green]

13 hours ago, henry d said:

So how much would you pay to prevent rather than punish?

Or do you like the idea of punishment rather than prevention? Just saying...as some say

Punishment sounds pretty much OK to me, of course prevention would be more desirable, but at the moment we have neither. Yes I'm OK with punishment 

[JohnfromUK]

3 hours ago, Vince Green said:

am I missing something?

Yes; you need to call in a series of very expensive consultants to write long reports to advise you to consider changing the approach.  By that time someone else will be in power again.  It doesn't make sense if you do it yourself because when it doesn't work, you get the blame ....... better to have someone else to blame, and you can spend taxpayers money at the same time, which is always good entertainment.

Edited August 5, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Saltings]

history teaches us corporal punishment works so the liberal system is **** go back to corporal punishment  as in other words teach the little ******* there is a price to pay for their actions there is always a price to  pay for a jolly at someone else's  expense not that many years ago they would be on their way to Australia to never return  so now send the so called bad boys to the middle east to  fight for their country

[henry d]

On 05/08/2018 at 11:59, Newbie to this said:

Exactly prevent by deterrent.

If there is no fear of consequences then there is no deterrence, leading to no prevention.

So do we do nothing then?

On 05/08/2018 at 12:13, Vince Green said:

Punishment sounds pretty much OK to me, of course prevention would be more desirable, but at the moment we have neither. Yes I'm OK with punishment 

If you have prevention going on then how do you know it is going on? As I have said before myself and many others are working with, mainly, young people and helping them sort out the chaos of their family and peer led lives. In the main most YP see that their family lives are toxic and they need to find a better way but are not sure how to do it, which is where a multi-agency approach works well. Schools/social services/police/YW identify and refer the YP and in 75% (ish) of the cases we can help them to find a sustained positive destination.

How do we know that the YP we pass on the street has had this happen to them rather than being a stat in Polmont, basically we don`t and neither does the govt.

[Newbie to this]

 

12 minutes ago, henry d said:

So do we do nothing then?

No we make the sentence something to fear and we make prisons something to fear. Also when sentenced you get your release date, you will not be out before that date, no time off for good behaviour. Instead if you don't behave you get time added on. Prison should be about punishment first and rehabilitation second, you get punished for your crime and if you can't prove you are rehabilitated then you stay in until you are.

We also need to stop giving countless second chancesto repeat offenders because rehabilitation isn't going to happen.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Newbie to this

[panoma1]

Equally, murderers who refuse to reveal where the bodies if their victims lie, for the sake of the victims family, should serve their sentence, then remain in prison until they do!

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

No we make the sentence something to fear and we make prisons something to fear. Also when sentenced you get your release date, you will not be out before that date, no time off for good behaviour. Instead if you don't behave you get time added on. Prison should be about punishment first and rehabilitation second, you get punished for your crime and if you can't prove you are rehabilitated then you stay in until you are.

Good luck with that one.

The recent programs on the box about HMP Northumberland & the series Prison aired last week just shows what they have turned into, a real eye opener.

[old man]

A very disturbing predicament here.

This downward spiral has been allowed or sponsored to to continue for far too long to such a point as to be probably beyond recovery?

The rehabilitation side and the draconian side most likely can never be given the support from wherever needed to halt the decline. No funds, no will power, no idea?

History may well provide the end point?

[Newbie to this]

33 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Equally, murderers who refuse to reveal where the bodies if their victims lie, for the sake of the victims family, should serve their sentence, then remain in prison until they do!

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

So do we do nothing then?

If you have prevention going on then how do you know it is going on? As I have said before myself and many others are working with, mainly, young people and helping them sort out the chaos of their family and peer led lives. In the main most YP see that their family lives are toxic and they need to find a better way but are not sure how to do it, which is where a multi-agency approach works well. Schools/social services/police/YW identify and refer the YP and in 75% (ish) of the cases we can help them to find a sustained positive destination.

How do we know that the YP we pass on the street has had this happen to them rather than being a stat in Polmont, basically we don`t and neither does the govt.

We arent doing 'nothing' we are softening the justice and prison system year on year, bringing it more in line with our softer European counterparts.
Working great isnt it ?

Im not sure how old you are Henry, but Ive noticed over the last 40 years how our justice and prison system has got softer, and crime has risen proportionately.
Now why would that be?
Is it about poverty? No, because almost universally people are far better off.
Is it about family life ? Possibly, but is that a lack of discipline, absent fathers, addiction ? Why have these factors become apparent, when they were far less prevalent 30 - 40 years ago ?
Peers? gangs, I grew up with gangs, we used to fight ,throw stones at each other and hit them with lumps of wood, we knew when to stop.
What we didnt do was stab each other with zombie knifes and throw acid over people, or pour petrol through letterboxes.
You knew that if you went down the wrong track, borstal was ready to welcome you with open arms and harsh treatment.
And if you still didnt 'get it' adult prison and a mucking out bucket.

You talk about prevention and multi agency approaches, we have had these for many years, and still crime goes up, home security is a massive growth industry because people dont feel safe anymore, and no one truly believes that the offenders will be caught, or even if they are , NOTHING will happen to them.

Does softly softly prevention work? I cant see it personally, maybe you can see the good, but thats your job, you have to.
The people at the other end of the spectrum, the victims , just have to suck it up.

So we dont do 'nothing' we tighten up, hand out some appropriate sentences, and try and show kids where this life might lead, like we used to.

[old man]

Who in power is going to use the big stick? 

No-one, too much money being made from the chaos, nevermind the personnel involved as long as the shareholders cream it in. Just another successful iniative.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, old man said:

Who in power is going to use the big stick? 

No-one, too much money being made from the chaos, nevermind the personnel involved as long as the shareholders cream it in. Just another successful iniative.

Youre not wrong.
But you can use the big stick now, or the bigger stick later.
The difference is that now, we have an economy, people working and taxes, that pay for it all.
Later down the line, we may not have the resources to tackle it, or a society that cares.

[old man]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Youre not wrong.
But you can use the big stick now, or the bigger stick later.
The difference is that now, we have an economy, people working and taxes, that pay for it all.
Later down the line, we may not have the resources to tackle it, or a society that cares.

Only just able to pay. Personally not sure that society gives a rat's *** now, never mind later. Innit!

[Rewulf]

[henry d]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Im not sure how old you are Henry, but Ive noticed over the last 40 years how our justice and prison system has got softer, and crime has risen proportionately.
Now why would that be?

Nearly 60, watch the video linked below and transfer it across to C&P
Peers? (peers are not gangs, everything from your friend to a particular advert caan have pressure on you)gangs, I grew up with gangs, we used to fight ,throw stones at each other and hit them with lumps of wood, we knew when to stop.
What we didnt do was stab each other with zombie knifes and throw acid over people, or pour petrol through letterboxes.
You knew that if you went down the wrong track, borstal was ready to welcome you with open arms and harsh treatment.
I remember the skins and hairies years and the razor gangs and before that mods n rockers, never stopped them then from slashing people. The Krays and other gangs....

It`s less than 15 minutes long and goes a long way towards explaining why C&P in its present state does not work and is transferable from addiction to other social ills

[panoma1]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

White Europeans in appearance eh? Ain't that picture an unlikely representation?.........And it is racist?

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

White Europeans in appearance eh? Ain't that picture an unlikely representation?.........And it is racist?

You know I never considered that, Ill try to be more inclusive in future ??

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, henry d said:

It`s less than 15 minutes long and goes a long way towards explaining why C&P in its present state does not work and is transferable from addiction to other social ills

Ill watch the video later.

On the subject of peers, I am well aware of what they are, and bearing in mind adverts had nowhere near the same influence on kids in my day as they do now, and social media simply didnt exist, you pretty much had your friends, or your group, your 'gang'
A gang doesnt have to be a gun and knife toting wrecking crew, a 'posse' as it were.

But what we hear these days are that kids have to be in gangs like the nice gentlemen in my meme above, for 'protection'
Protection presumably from other gangs who are just 'protecting' themselves.
Im sure they wouldnt bully anyone would they , or pick on innocent passers by ?
Maybe theyre bored, no money, home life a bit rubbish, so lets raid grandads shed for some gardening implements and terrorise the neighborhood ?
Seems reasonable ?

What they dont fear, what they dont need protection from is the law, or any real punishment.
Start early teens in the crew, wannabe gangsta to adulthood and beyond.
Still no respect for anything ,including themselves.

Short, sharp, shock they used to call it back when I was a kid, and there was nowhere near the amount of rakes that made it to adulthood thinking the law wouldnt kick their backsides down the road.
 

[12gauge82]

The criminal justice system is deluded, it's got softer year on year, crime and violence both inside prison and out is climbing, people then call for less punishment and more "rehabilitation" and crime goes up more, does anyone see the pattern?

[henry d]

43 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Ill watch the video later.

you could have in the time it took to write the reply

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, henry d said:

you could have in the time it took to write the reply

Speakers have packed up on my work computer, Ill watch it on the one at home.

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

White Europeans in appearance eh? Ain't that picture an unlikely representation?.........And it is racist?

No its not, there are probably a lot more feral white kids like that roaming the estates than all the other ethnic groups put together. Hoodie, cheap training jacket, grey primark trackies and low budget trainers, that picture could be described as the Chav's in their national dress.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Vince Green