What a mess!

[Retsdon]

' This year we will admit 800 stabbing and 60 gunshot victims with life- or limb-threatening injuries. Knife/gun injuries are about 30% of our workload says a London surgeon.

Aside from the trauma to victims families, etc, the waste of money and resources that could be used elsewhere must be just phenomenal. How did the capital of the country ever get into this state? To my mind anyway,  the political classes of all hues have one hell of a lot to answer for. Over the last 30 years the whole lot of them have systematically betrayed the interests of the people they were supposed to be representing.

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

How did the capital of the country ever get into this state?

By standing by and watching rather than getting tough and tackling it hard when it began to grow.  Much is reputed to be 'drug turf wars' related.  Much so called 'low level' dealing is ignored - the story being that the are going for the 'Mr Bigs' - except they don't.

 

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

To my mind anyway,  the political classes of all hues have one hell of a lot to answer for. Over the last 30 years the whole lot of them have systematically betrayed the interests of the people they were supposed to be representing.

Correct: and it is spreading out of the capital with the so called 'county lines gangs' crime.  http://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/publications/832-county-lines-violence-exploitation-and-drug-supply-2017/file

[manthing]

It started in schools 30 years ago and it's not only London. The kids that were never punished at school had a high old time and now their kids don't respect them, their teachers, the police or the courts. 

Instead of the odd delinquent we now have schools full of them. 

I do hope all those "progressive liberals" who told us we had to let kids decide what they want to do are happy with the current status quo. 

You should bring kids up telling them what to do with clearly defined consequences if it's not done. I see people saying to their kids to stop doing stuff over and over again. No no no, ask once, tell once. 

[Pigeon Shredder.]

Only 30 years !

They have systematically been doing it since time began, and are only representatives of a class structure that neither you or l will ever be a part of.

You can see from the twisting and turning that occurs daily when they all meet up at Westminster that you and l mean absolutely nothing to them.

l could spend all day on this subject but l'm sure someone will be along to protect them soon.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Thankfully I now no longer live near the Capital and no longer visit the metropolis. It would seem that within some layers of society, carrying a knife has become the norm.

Surely if there was a fear of police action (from an active Police force), prosecution, and imprisonment (for a reasonable period of time). This knife carrying and ultimate use would be reduced.

Many years ago, New York under a new Mayor adopted a zero-tolerance approach to policing. Every small misdemeanour was prosecuted, I believe there was a massive reduction in the murder rate due to this action.

We would of course need to employ some resolute politicians and a much larger and differently managed Police Force.

Unfortunately I do not think any of this will happen and young males will continue to die pointlessly on our streets.

[Vince Green]

One of the present Mayor's election pledges was to put an end to stop and search - go figure it out for yourself.

Despite having to bury their kids, there is still massive opposition from so called (usually self appointed) "Community Leaders" around stop and search. It helps them to maintain the narrative that the Police are racist and not to be trusted.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Vince Green said:

One of the present Mayor's election pledges was to put an end to stop and search - go figure it out for yourself.

Despite having to bury their kids, there is still massive opposition from so called (usually self appointed) "Community Leaders" around stop and search. It helps them to maintain the narrative that the Police are racist and not to be trusted.

Garnering the vote from all those outraged that more black male youths were historically stopped and searched because more of them were involved in crime. 

I'm afraid Khan is rather shallow in this respect.

[JohnfromUK]

I'm not a LOndoner, so at the risk of being told to mind my own business, here goes;

London has had poor mayors.  Livingstone was a self serving lefty nutjob - interested in spending money on leftist issues - that he hoped would stand him good at the next election.  Johnson was only really interested in using the mayors post for a stage for his own climb up the greasy pole and his political ambitions agenda.  Kahn is more interested in stopping Brexit, stopping the Trump visit and 'sniping' at the governments heels.

It wants a person who is interested in the welfare of London, not their own political agenda, career or party.  Possibly a retired city figure?

[krugerandsmith]

9 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Garnering the vote from all those outraged that more black male youths were historically stopped and searched because more of them were involved in crime. 

I'm afraid Khan is rather shallow in this respect.

The Police Force has been decimated by this Government and others so .... What the Hell do you expect, and its going to get  worse, Greed has taken over we are racing to Hell and unless direct action is taken by the people I fear for our future.

[hambone]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Thankfully I now no longer live near the Capital and no longer visit the metropolis. It would seem that within some layers of society, carrying a knife has become the norm.

Surely if there was a fear of police action (from an active Police force), prosecution, and imprisonment (for a reasonable period of time). This knife carrying and ultimate use would be reduced.

Many years ago, New York under a new Mayor adopted a zero-tolerance approach to policing. Every small misdemeanour was prosecuted, I believe there was a massive reduction in the murder rate due to this action.

We would of course need to employ some resolute politicians and a much larger and differently managed Police Force.

Unfortunately I do not think any of this will happen and young males will continue to die pointlessly on our streets.

This is what is required but would need plenty of new police/jails etc to cope so is unlikely to happen.

[JohnfromUK]

24 minutes ago, krugerandsmith said:

The Police Force has been decimated by this Government and others so .... What the Hell do you expect,

I don't think that is a big part of the problem; overall numbers have dropped from a peak (this shows 40 years);

But 'front line' numbers have reduced continuously over the last 8 years;

I think a more serious issue is that when the police to arrest criminals, the courts let them out.  See this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6360601/Four-ten-criminals-caught-repeatedly-knives-avoid-jail.html

Edited November 7, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[panoma1]

24 minutes ago, krugerandsmith said:

The Police Force has been decimated by this Government and others so .... What the Hell do you expect, and its going to get  worse, Greed has taken over we are racing to Hell and unless direct action is taken by the people I fear for our future.

Following a PC agenda and trying to show they are not institutionally racist has distracted from enforcing proper crime,  top loading higher ranks with the PC, "diversity" and the politically "aware", as opposed to proper "thief takers", lack of punishment which fits the crime, soft sentencing by the courts, lack of parental guidence, lack of corporal punishment in schools and the home, tensions between different ethnic groups, allied to government cuts........it all adds up to a perfect storm!

[Vince Green]

You have to also take into account the change in ethnic dynamics regarding violent crime in London. Take the moped gangs now such a problem, a very high percentage of those involved were refugees of some description. Young men who never went through the UK education system so you can't blame the schools. They also don't have permanent addresses so hard to serve summons and other papers.

[panoma1]

2 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

You have to also take into account the change in ethnic dynamics regarding violent crime in London. Take the moped gangs now such a problem, a very high percentage of those involved were refugees of some description. Young men who never went through the UK education system so you can't blame the schools. They also don't have permanent addresses so hard to serve summons and other papers.

I did intend to write "tensions between and with different ethnic groups".....

[DanBettin]

I feel like a lot of people are looking in the wrong places for the cause of the increase in knife-related crime. I've seen the finger pointed at schools, drug laws, lack of police - none of which is the cause. It's simply a culture thing. Inside the life of these gangs, people don't hold the same perception on violent crime - not at all, not in the slightest. It is glorified to the point that it's part of their duty in order to play the game they have to play. Your politicians and TV figures debating this don't have to play the same game, never have, so they project reason and rationale that simply doesn't apply.

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

One of the present Mayor's election pledges was to put an end to stop and search - go figure it out for yourself.

Despite having to bury their kids, there is still massive opposition from so called (usually self appointed) "Community Leaders" around stop and search. It helps them to maintain the narrative that the Police are racist and not to be trusted.

Yep, the solution is with the communities themselves, but you know what, I don't think they want it. Drugs and related crime are seen as a valid career choice.

[DanBettin]

Just now, Penelope said:

Yep, the solution is with the communities themselves, but you know what, I don't think they want it. Drugs and related crime are seen as a valid career choice.

Precisely.

[JohnfromUK]

17 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

It's simply a culture thing.

 

15 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Yep, the solution is with the communities themselves, but you know what, I don't think they want it.

So what is the solution?  Zero tolerance?  Short sharp shock?  The birch?

17 minutes ago, Penelope said:

the solution is with the communities themselves,

I don't disagree with your interpretation of the root cause, but I'm at a loss as to how to tackle it.

[DanBettin]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

So what is the solution?  Zero tolerance?  Short sharp shock?  The birch?

Don't know, I don't claim to know. But it has become systemic, so the solution must be. It's almost like, within these circles, knife crime has been glorified, at the very least lost it's stigma  - it needs to be stigmatised.

[Penelope]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

So what is the solution?  Zero tolerance?  Short sharp shock?  The birch?

I don't disagree with your interpretation of the root cause, but I'm at a loss as to how to tackle it.

The solution? For the communities to be proactive in assisting the Police instead of clamming up, for making their own children respect authority and not to respect 'respec?' To turn them away from the influences and glorification of street culture and everything associated with it. Legalizing cannabis would help, possibly, removing that link to the criminal world and the allure of a quick buck with little effort. Plus the deterrent measures that you provided.

I'm sure that there are other options too.

[Vince Green]

7 minutes ago, Penelope said:

The solution? For the communities to be proactive in assisting the Police instead of clamming up, for making their own children respect authority and not to respect 'respec?' To turn them away from the influences and glorification of street culture and everything associated with it. Legalizing cannabis would help, possibly, removing that link to the criminal world and the allure of a quick buck with little effort. Plus the deterrent measures that you provided.

I'm sure that there are other options too.

The trouble with legalising cannabis is you would cut off their income stream but what would they do to replace it? Get a job? 

A start would be to identify and actually deport the ones who shouldn't be here in the first place.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Vince Green

[Penelope]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The trouble with legalising cannabis is you would cut off their income stream but what would they do to replace it? Get a job? 

Well, yeah, that's what is needed, to become respectable members of society. Trouble is the easy option is more appealing and there is no fear of the legal consequences.

[das]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

You have to also take into account the change in ethnic dynamics regarding violent crime in London. Take the moped gangs now such a problem, a very high percentage of those involved were refugees of some description. Young men who never went through the UK education system so you can't blame the schools. They also don't have permanent addresses so hard to serve summons and other papers.

Sounds exactly right to me. Well said👍

[DanBettin]

25 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The trouble with legalising cannabis is you would cut off their income stream but what would they do to replace it? Get a job? 

A start would be to identify and actually deport the ones who shouldn't be here in the first place.

Deport who??

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

You have to also take into account the change in ethnic dynamics regarding violent crime in London. Take the moped gangs now such a problem, a very high percentage of those involved were refugees of some description. Young men who never went through the UK education system so you can't blame the schools. They also don't have permanent addresses so hard to serve summons and other papers.

I remember reading an interview with a gang member or 'Road Man' as they call themselves in the London Evening Standard a few months ago and in it, he said that the ante was raised with regards to knives and stabbings with the influx of Somalis, they had no fear or value to life.