What a mess!

[Gordon R]

It needs the likes of God's Cop - Jim Anderton - to stop messing about and go in hard. Harsh sentences for knife or gun carriers - 25 years minimum - plus the political will to see it through.

I see some advocating the death penalty - which I would support - yet on other threads, people say there might be mistakes and which jury would find them guilty. How many people have to die before someone gets a grip?

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

It needs the likes of God's Cop - Jim Anderton - to stop messing about and go in hard. Harsh sentences for knife or gun carriers - 25 years minimum - plus the political will to see it through.

I see some advocating the death penalty - which I would support - yet on other threads, people say there might be mistakes and which jury would find them guilty. How many people have to die before someone gets a grip?

Fortunately there is not the political will to see such draconian measures put in place. 

Stopping law abiding gun owners holding pistols does not stop gun crime. Why would laws restricting the use of guns and knives have any lasting effect on those that do not obey the laws? Whilst in theory it might be possible to achieve draconian enforcement the reality of this on our liberty would be disproportionate to the result and that's before we consider cost. 

I can see it now heavy handed institutional racist attacks on parts of the community causing riots and civil unrest. Out comes the army or some similar heavy handed tactic and before we know we have large scale unrest and we still leave the underlying causes unaddressed.  

[Rewulf]

28 minutes ago, oowee said:

Nope on its own it wont work. Get one and another two come to the funeral. Clear the knives and out will come the forks. You don't cure a disease by tackling the symptoms. 

Surely we have been trying the same old same, old stuff long enough to learn that we need a concerted effort all working together and put some long term resource behind the problem. 

You cant cure a patient that doesnt recognise its ill either.

We HAVE  been trying the same old stuff, the same old softly softly approach around minority crime, dont want to upset or offend anyone do we ?
Best not stop and search these kids, they might scream racism.
Dont give them the minimum sentence, might look like ,youve guessed it racism !

The best bit is , the 'target audience' doesnt realise, due to their moronic 'culture' that they are wrecking their community, their prospects, and the poor unfortunate offspring that may spring from their loins.
You would think that their parents would instill some pride in their heritage and try to set them on a path to self respect and prosperity.
But instead they buy into a make believe Hollywood world of 'glamorous'  drug dealing and earning 'respect' 
Or the equally fake world of making a living rapping about your life 'on the street'
All whilst living in your mums house thats paid for by the social, and wondering what your dad looks like.

Try fixing some of those social issues first, and good luck, because no amount of money can fix stupid.
 

[oowee]

Your right they do not see the problem but you wont solve a fundamentally complex problem problem with a simplistic knee jerk unfounded reaction. Its just not that simple. For many its the only way they know. 

We have tried the same old stuff but it's been short term, uncoordinated, politically driven and not comprehensive. It's not about one thing first it's about all actions together. It has to be carrot and stick, both properly funded and working hand in hand. You can't fix stupid but a stupid knee jerk reaction will create the space for a lot more stupid.

Edited November 7, 2018 by oowee

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

For many its the only way they know.

Exactly , the only way they know is if someone hurts you , you hurt them back.
Some one 'disses' you, you teach them the error of their ways.
Some one doesnt show 'respect' you SHOW them how foolish that is.

They understand violence and force, listen to their speech, it inflects threat.
They have bought into the concrete jungle myth, and no one wants to be the prey.

Thats why a snarky facebook post ends up with someone with a bullet in them , or a knife in the guts, this is what you are dealing with.
Overbearing use of force, or you appear weak, then someone else may take a shot at you.
You cant fix that mentality with kind words and a big budget.
The only thing they will understand is overwhelming force levelled at them.
This will come sooner or later, but it will come.

[JohnfromUK]

29 minutes ago, oowee said:

For many its the only way they know. 

You could easily argue that there is no place in a civilised society for those views.

[oowee]

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Exactly , the only way they know is if someone hurts you , you hurt them back.
Some one 'disses' you, you teach them the error of their ways.
Some one doesnt show 'respect' you SHOW them how foolish that is.

They understand violence and force, listen to their speech, it inflects threat.
They have bought into the concrete jungle myth, and no one wants to be the prey.

Thats why a snarky facebook post ends up with someone with a bullet in them , or a knife in the guts, this is what you are dealing with.
Overbearing use of force, or you appear weak, then someone else may take a shot at you.
You cant fix that mentality with kind words and a big budget.
The only thing they will understand is overwhelming force levelled at them.
This will come sooner or later, but it will come.

Guns in school next 

 

16 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

You could easily argue that there is no place in a civilised society for those views.

And i would agree so lets offer an alternative. 

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

And i would agree so lets offer an alternative. 

In a culture that respects strength, the method of dealing with unruly behaviour and criminality, is superior strength, clinical brutal sentencing , to an environment that is something so harsh, it makes re offending, and more importantly, committing the act in the first place, so unpalatable, to deem it a positively bad idea.

Its alright using the liberal principles, and claiming that barbarism met with barbaric treatment is not who we are these days.
This is what we have been doing , and its not working.
The alternatives are either as you say, tackle it differently, by either a different form of education and social care, but that to my mind , is being even softer on the problem.
The other side of the coin is deterrence through fear of consequence.

Your method MIGHT work, after 10-15 years, it could easily make it worse, as authority is seen to be further weakened.
My method would definitely work, but has this country got the will to do it ?

It comes back to that same old story of government.
Who is going to risk not being reelected for pushing the radical approach ?
I wont hold my breath.

[Zapp]

The US has a very heavily punishment-oriented penal system and the death penalty in some states yet has extremely high crime and recidivism rates.

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Nicely put Rewulf.

Edited November 7, 2018 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Retsdon]

In all truth I think it's probably too late to do anything. The horse has bolted. 

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, Zapp said:

The US has a very heavily punishment-oriented penal system and the death penalty in some states yet has extremely high crime and recidivism rates.

 

Had to look that one up 🙂

My thoughts entirely violence breeds more of the same. I am all for a strict enforcement regime but it has to be backed up with a comprehensive package of support to avoid more of the same and offer an alternative future.

[Snoozer]

11 hours ago, manthing said:

It started in schools 30 years ago and it's not only London. The kids that were never punished at school had a high old time and now their kids don't respect them, their teachers, the police or the courts. 

Instead of the odd delinquent we now have schools full of them. 

I do hope all those "progressive liberals" who told us we had to let kids decide what they want to do are happy with the current status quo. 

You should bring kids up telling them what to do with clearly defined consequences if it's not done. I see people saying to their kids to stop doing stuff over and over again. No no no, ask once, tell once. 

Thanks this post saved me typing

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Zapp said:

The US has a very heavily punishment-oriented penal system and the death penalty in some states yet has extremely high crime and recidivism rates.

 

Yes it does, which begs the question , why?
Jack that car , rob that shop, carry that weapon. Do it 3 times in a row and end up spending 50 years in a jail that would make some of our hardest cons cry like babies.
Yet they still do it, maybe their life inside, with 3 square meals a day and as much sex as they can handle , is a better life than they had on the outside.
Maybe they cant help themselves, or are just stupid?

The fact of the matter is, the Americans dont see it like we do, they arent all about rehabilitation.
Its about removing the rubbish from their society, and burying it in a hole, until such time as they are no longer considered a threat to society.
Agree or disagree with it, they have 'solved' the issue as far as they are concerned.

6 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

In all truth I think it's probably too late to do anything. The horse has bolted. 

No the horse hasnt bolted, there is still time to toughen up, otherwise the tipping point will come with your civil liberties removed for your own protection, and a police state or military rule enacted.
The authority in this country will not watch as the place descends into an anarchic wasteland, they will act, and it probably wont be pretty.
Liberalism will become a dirty word, blamed for every woe afterwards.

[Zapp]

The inference I draw from it is that simply having a harsh penal system is not a guarantee of deterrence. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

No the horse hasnt bolted, there is still time to toughen up, otherwise the tipping point will come with your civil liberties removed for your own protection, and a police state or military rule enacted.
The authority in this country will not watch as the place descends into an anarchic wasteland, they will act, and it probably wont be pretty.
Liberalism will become a dirty word, blamed for every woe afterwards.

If we get to the situation where people take the law in to their own hands we will then lose more of our liberty to try to stop the vigilantes.

But if the Police either can't or wont sort out the problem, then possibly natural order will take over.

[Retsdon]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Liberalism will become a dirty word, blamed for every woe afterwards.

the road to Hell is paved with good intentions'.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Is that really a quote of mine?

I think you have quoted Rewulf as myself!

Edited November 7, 2018 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Mice!]

How much trouble was there during the world cup in Russia? I didn't see anything and was expecting a blood bath, the Russians made it quite clear they were going to crack heads and come down like the wrath of god.

When I see "another stabbing or shooting" i switch off or ignore it, London is like another country as far as I'm concerned, but its spreading.

I was shown a video of some scrote trying to kick off with a fella putting his kids in the car at an Asda, he turned away when he realised he was being filmed, but him and his mates still stood there yelling abuse.

Another was a video of a teenager standing/ jumping on a fancy BMW on the roof, car had slowed in traffic, fella gets out to chase the scum bag away, who has a two foot pipe, then another three or four "youths" appear !! No one comes to help then the video stopped.

It's spreading these two cases were Fleetwood and preston/Blackpool, most folk have probably seen this already all over the country but i don't look for stuff on Facebook.

I don't think any softly softly is going to work that ship has sailed.

[islandgun]

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/08/23/as-knife-crime-rises-in-england-police-look-to-glasgow

 Knife crime in Glasgow down 65%  From memory they helped those that wanted out as much as they could, whilst a re-offender suffered badly.

strong deterrence on its own seldom stops anyone...especially male teens 

47 minutes ago, Zapp said:

The inference I draw from it is that simply having a harsh penal system is not a guarantee of deterrence. 

 

[Rewulf]

47 minutes ago, Zapp said:

The inference I draw from it is that simply having a harsh penal system is not a guarantee of deterrence. 

There were times in this country and others, where stealing a loaf of bread, or some other low valued item would get you the noose.
Yet still they did it, desperation , starvation ?
Sometimes people have such contempt for law enforcement , or such  a superiority complex , that they dont believe they will be caught.
Like I say , there are many who see a life in todays prisons as preferable to life free on the outside, the deterrent for them is a more harsh prison system, even then, some will never be deterred.
The feral kids roaming London have no fear of the law, or the prison system, even if they are unlucky enough to be caught.
They will view time spent inside as a badge of honour, they know that time will be short, and their ankle bracelet revered like a goldy looking chain.

If the present system isnt working, and Ill defy anyone to tell me it is, the system needs changing.
Otherwise we are flogging a dead horse.

[stumfelter]

I know exactly what will happen. Nothing. It's a big thing now because that's what the media wants it to be and this time next week it will be something else. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Zapp]

I agree that the current system isn't working, but where it is operated, the hard line approach is demonstrably failing to reduce criminality or protect the public.

My view is that we need a system that works, whether or not it satisfies our personal views on retribution.

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, Zapp said:

I agree that the current system isn't working, but where it is operated, the hard line approach is demonstrably failing to reduce criminality or protect the public.

My view is that we need a system that works, whether or not it satisfies our personal views on retribution.

If they are locked up the public IS protected.
I believe this is what the Americans attempt with their 100 year sentences, you commit serious crimes, or even not so serious crimes habitually, they are going to lock you up till you are an old man/woman.
Whether that satisfies the victim or the victims family is irrelevant , the public is protected from further transgression from that particular individual, so justice has been seen to be done.
And this is the crux of the matter.
Both the criminals and the law abiding public in this country, have no faith in the ability of the police to catch the perps, the ability of the court to convict them, the judge to sentence them adequately , or the prison service to rehabilitate them so they dont reoffend .
When you have no faith in the system, the fabric of our society starts to unravel.
Yes we need a system that works, so do we go more soft, or more hard ?
I dont believe there are  any other alternatives ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

If they are locked up the public IS protected.
I believe this is what the Americans attempt with their 100 year sentences, you commit serious crimes, or even not so serious crimes habitually, they are going to lock you up till you are an old man/woman.
Whether that satisfies the victim or the victims family is irrelevant , the public is protected from further transgression from that particular individual, so justice has been seen to be done.
And this is the crux of the matter.
Both the criminals and the law abiding public in this country, have no faith in the ability of the police to catch the perps, the ability of the court to convict them, the judge to sentence them adequately , or the prison service to rehabilitate them so they dont reoffend .
When you have no faith in the system, the fabric of our society starts to unravel.
Yes we need a system that works, so do we go more soft, or more hard ?
I dont believe there are  any other alternatives ?

The current system certainly doesn't seem to work.

Let the snowflake lilly livered liberal sorts step aside for a while.