Relaying a rib

[keeper96]

Evening all, 

I’ve got an old Spanish side lock sbs, a really nice gun but not worth much over £200, that has a loose top rib. 

Obviously a smith repair is uneconomical. 

I have found the following video which has tempted me to have a go over the winter at fixing this myself. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.wideopenspaces.com/relay-detatched-rib-side-side-shotgun/amp/

I already have all of the equipment and I’m qualified I’m brazing with oxy acetaline, so I feel like I stand a good chance? 

Has anybody else attempted this? 

I understand it’ll need reblueing but again, I’m tempted to try this myself to resurrect an old family gun that would realistically be scrapped otherwise 

Thanks 

jamie 

[JohnfromUK]

Some of what one sees in these American videos is at best ham fisted bodge work.  I have watched a few and seen some stuff that would make a real gunsmith cringe.  Be careful.

I don't know much about this but;

• I believe English guns are done with silver solder at quite modest temperature and can quite easily be redone (with the right skills)
• Spanish guns may be done with a different process (possibly brazing) at higher temperature
• If water and oil have got under the rib, it will need cleaning out to get a good joint and long term corrosion prevention

My concerns would be that the temperature may cause damage (changes to metal hardness due to heat) and short of stripping it fully, how to get everything clean enough to get a good 'wet' joint.

I had some barrels done professionally (by the old William Powell operation when they were still in Birmingham) some years ago.  Not cheap, but done properly.

[keeper96]

Fair point, I think seeing as the gun is basically scrap anyway I’ll have a go and if it takes silly heat to loosen the rib then I’ll admit defeat, however if it is just solder then that should start giving way well before the barrels get anywhere near hot enough to effect them. 

Im confident enough that if I can lift the rib and take it back about 6” (only the last 2-3” is loose) I’ll be able to get a good enough clean and enough penetration with the solder to get a solid hold.

Ill give it a go and see how it goes. 

Worst case is the gun gets scrapped which is its current fate. 

[JohnfromUK]

There are others on here (such as Gunman to quote one example) who know far, far more than me ....... but please don't believe all you see in the American videos as being the 'right' way.  Some truly terrible 'bodging' has been posted there ............ and insultingly portrayed as 'traditional British'.  As above, I'm fairly sure that the Spanish used a 'harder' joint than the British who I think used silver solder.

[figgy]

You can watch plenty of videos of the likes of Purdy, Holland and Holland making guns and soldering barrells together with mid ribs and top ribs etc. Using twisted steel wire and wedges to keep it all together.

[ditchman]

im sure doing that would put it out of proof...........scrap it

[keeper96]

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

im sure doing that would put it out of proof...........scrap it

How’s that exactly? A gunsmith would go through the same process and not render it out of proof? 

 

[guzzicat]

Why not get a quote from Bamfords first ?

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, what make of spanish gun Jamie ?

[ditchman]

8 hours ago, keeper96 said:

How’s that exactly? A gunsmith would go through the same process and not render it out of proof? 

 

how could you prove you had not overheated the metal ? thus creating a softer area.........ive seen the rib laying process done...everything needs to be spotless ..top and bottom...its all wired and joined and wedged...and if i remember the whole barrel lenghth is gradually brought up to the right temperature.............

i have been using oxy/acety for over 4 decades and there is no way i would even be tempted to relay a rib............(unless it was on a deactivated gun)....

dont do it...would rather have you posting on here than visiting you in hostpital...

[keeper96]

3 hours ago, guzzicat said:

Why not get a quote from Bamfords first ?

I’ve already had a quote from a local Smith of £400.

the gun Is a jabali. 

[guzzicat]

As I said get a quote from Bamfords, not local gunsmith who would probably farm job out & add his profit margin.

[Gunman]

It is very rare that a Spanish gun has a loose rib as the vast majority were brazed . Whether it is possible to "re-solder " it loose section down or not is questionable and depends where the rib is loose . I have done this with some successes but also a few not so . I would never give any guarantee that the out come would be perfect or permanent .

Stripping and relaying ribs is a different matter .

It is almost impossible to strip an relay a set of barrels that have brazed ribs as do most Spanish guns , certainly not  economic and if a Spanish gun has to be sleeved it always requires new ribs to be fitted for this reason . I can only recall one Spanish gun when this was not so .i

First do not attempt to use oxy gear . You do not know how thick or thin the walls are and the high temperatures will cause distortion , A propane torch will spread the heat over a wider are so lessen this risk .

I would not even attempt to use silver solder so soft high tin solder is the recommended . Any standard soldering flux will be OK in this situation .

Biggest problem is getting the areas to be worked on clean, free of rust /corrosion .

If it is at the nose end then you should be able to get away with it but apply the heat evenly over the to and the bottom of the barrel so as to avoid warping ,gently heating the whole area rather than just on the area to be soldered so that eventually the solder will melt and run but not so fast as it runs out/off . Soft mild steel wire and a couple of nails will do to hold it all together but do not over tighten , gently tighten as the wire heats as expands enough to keep the nails in place .

Set the barrel up in such a way that the muzzle is lower than the breech so solder will run down thus avoiding "runners " those annoying loose bits that rattle inside .

This will not affect proof . 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Gunman

[Diss4111]

Depending on how much of it is loose you can buy metal adhesives that are stronger than a soldered joint. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Diss4111

[keeper96]

8 minutes ago, Gunman said:

It is rare that A Spanish gun has a loose rib as the vast majority were brazed . Whether it is possible to "re-solder " it loose section down or not is questionable and depends where the rib is loose .

First do not attempt to use oxy gear . You do not know how thick or thin the walls are and the high temperatures will cause distortion , A propane torch will spread the heat over a wider are so lessen this risk .

I would not even attempt to use silver solder so soft high tin solder is the recommended . Any standard soldering flux will be OK in this situation .

Biggest problem is getting the areas to be worked on clean, free of rust /corrosion .

If it is at the nose end then you should be able to get away with it but apply the heat evenly over the to and the bottom of the barrel so as to avoid warping ,gently heating the whole area rather than just on the area to be soldered so that eventually the solder will melt and run but not so fast as it runs out/off . Soft mild steel wire and a couple of nails will do to hold it all together but do not over tighten , gently tighten as the wire heats as expands enough to keep the nails in place .

Set the barrel up in such a way that the muzzle is lower than the breech so solder will run down thus avoiding "runners " those annoying loose bits that rattle inside .

This will not affect proof .

Thanks gunman, 

i had no intention of using the oxy gear, it was just to show I have dealt with similar things and I’m familiar with metal work. 

I’d figured that getting it all clean enough would be a bit of a pig, but as usual I’m guessing it’s just a case of time and patience to do a decent job. 

It is the last 2-3 inches of the muzzle end that’s came loose which is why I feel able to attempt this, I’d never attempt to do a full rib. 

Should I hit any issues would I be able to drop you a message for advice? 

Thanks 

[Gunman]

1 minute ago, keeper96 said:

Thanks gunman, 

i had no intention of using the oxy gear, it was just to show I have dealt with similar things and I’m familiar with metal work. 

I’d figured that getting it all clean enough would be a bit of a pig, but as usual I’m guessing it’s just a case of time and patience to do a decent job. 

It is the last 2-3 inches of the muzzle end that’s came loose which is why I feel able to attempt this, I’d never attempt to do a full rib. 

Should I hit any issues would I be able to drop you a message for advice? 

Thanks 

Crude but a bead blaster and or pickle will do the job more than adequately . 

Always willing to give any tips I can 

[keeper96]

I just so happen to have a blaster in the garage haha! 

Thanks 

[demonwolf444]

Just make sure you clean the joint properly and apply lots of flux - use rosin to flux the joint - try and tin the surfaces before hand - IMO its sometimes easier to lift the whole rib and relay depending on how bad the soldier joint was to begin with.  Obviously your other ribs and forend hanger is soldiered on as well so control your heat or you might attach the top rib but un - attach something else. You need annealed iron wire to tie the barrels - its hard to find and ideally you want some that isnt too oily or it will get on your nicely tinned and de greased surfaces. Horse shoe nails are good for tapping under the wire to clamp the ribs to the barrels.

Carry the work out on a flat bench with the barrels set up on parallels..you can end up with one barrel shooting high and the other shooting low.. dont ask me how i know its just all part of the learning curve! 

ideally use some copper or aluminum or some fore bricks to try and heat sink away from the rest of the barrels, allow to heat up and cool down slowly, You need to tin and then clean and then clean and then clean and you need to make sure that your flux is decent quality and is not going to leave an acidic residue behind.

Its dirty messy job and you will need to reblue after as once you have done the work you will have to clean off the spilt over flux and clean up the tinning next to the ribs and such.

 

 

[keeper96]

I’m assuming that tinning is the same as when joining wires together? 

I.e applying a thing layer of solder to the rib and barrels before soldering them together? 

Edited December 19, 2018 by keeper96

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, keeper96 said:

I’m assuming that tinning is the same as when joining wires together? 

I.e applying a thing layer of solder to the rib and barrels before soldering them together? 

^        Years ago, I did it this way on the under rib and ramrod tubes on a muzzle loader, it worked fine!

[Gunman]

2 hours ago, keeper96 said:

I’m assuming that tinning is the same as when joining wires together? 

I.e applying a thing layer of solder to the rib and barrels before soldering them together? 

Best advice would be to clean, flux , wire up , heat and let the solder run in . Trying to "tin up" first will just lead to complications .As said gently does it .