Current situation please

[the hitman]

Hi Folks

like everyone else I have been trying to keep up with developments regards shooting pigeons in England.

just in case I have missed anything, are we still waiting for a revised version on the individual permits to be released?

Can we now shoot pigeons as long as we can show that non lethal methods have been tried.

Any information would be very welcome.

 

Hitman

[ShootingEgg]

I think the new GL makes it very hard to say every method has been tried, tested and failed. Im not sure how many people got individual licence's, and if anyone is actually shooting at the moment. 

[Lucky Shot 1958]

I just spoke with BASC and was told that as per GL31 I could shoot Pigeons as long as other methods to protect the crop had failed,so I am now going to shoot on some rape where a banger and flags have failed miserably to deter the Pigeons.

I will also fully comply with one of the Pigeon deterrents from GL31.

•   Woodpigeon models (particularly those with outstretched wings, showing the white wing bars) to give the impression of dead birds.

[NatureBoy]

38 minutes ago, Lucky Shot 1958 said:

I just spoke with BASC and was told that as per GL31 I could shoot Pigeons as long as other methods to protect the crop had failed,so I am now going to shoot on some rape where a banger and flags have failed miserably to deter the Pigeons.

I will also fully comply with one of the Pigeon deterrents from GL31.

•   Woodpigeon models (particularly those with outstretched wings, showing the white wing bars) to give the impression of dead birds.

Get em on ya magnet LS and really scare em!!! Has been quiet round Suffolk this weekend.  NB

[Wooder]

38 minutes ago, NatureBoy said:

Get em on ya magnet LS and really scare em!!! Has been quiet round Suffolk this weekend.  NB

 

1 hour ago, Lucky Shot 1958 said:

I just spoke with BASC and was told that as per GL31 I could shoot Pigeons as long as other methods to protect the crop had failed,so I am now going to shoot on some rape where a banger and flags have failed miserably to deter the Pigeons.

I will also fully comply with one of the Pigeon deterrents from GL31.

•   Woodpigeon models (particularly those with outstretched wings, showing the white wing bars) to give the impression of dead birds.

don't forget a couple of bouncers as well !!

[ShootingEgg]

1 hour ago, Lucky Shot 1958 said:

I just spoke with BASC and was told that as per GL31 I could shoot Pigeons as long as other methods to protect the crop had failed,so I am now going to shoot on some rape where a banger and flags have failed miserably to deter the Pigeons.

I will also fully comply with one of the Pigeon deterrents from GL31.

•   Woodpigeon models (particularly those with outstretched wings, showing the white wing bars) to give the impression of dead birds.

If that is the case im out this weekend at the veg grower, with my plastic scarers

[David.Evans]

Sorry lads 

I'm totally confused can we use magnets , bouncers and decoys after trying all none leathal means 

Atb 

[marsh man]

9 minutes ago, David.Evans said:

Sorry lads 

I'm totally confused can we use magnets , bouncers and decoys after trying all none leathal means 

Atb 

I don't think there is anything to say you cant , but I cant see anything to say you can , looking at it , you are supposed to do your best to keep whatever you are after off the crops , would putting decoys out encourage them on , a debatable point .

[JJsDad]

22 minutes ago, David.Evans said:

can we use magnets , bouncers and decoys

There is nothing in GL 31 to say you cannot use a magnet, a bouncer or decoys. To the contrary, there is a bullet point in the advice section suggesting that a decoy with outstretched wings will deter pigeons. Evidently the person who drafted that little pearl of wisdom has never seen a Hypa-Flap working !!!!

A bouncer also has its wings outstretched, so that will deter them also according to Natural England.

You then keep count of all missed shots, as these can then be counted as attempts to scare them away ! Simples.

Edited May 7, 2019 by JJsDad

[mossy835]

well  im not shooting any, untill its sorted out, i have never shot so many squirrels in 2 weeks since its started,with the new gl.

[David.Evans]

Marsh man and j dad 

thank you for your words of wisdom I'm not scratching my chin so much now , lol 

atb 

4 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

If that is the case im out this weekend at the veg grower, with my plastic scarers

I'm gong to take my 16 frozen ones out the freezer and use them , no law broke there then , and when there de frosted who knows 

[JJsDad]

6 hours ago, the hitman said:

Can we now shoot pigeons as long as we can show that non lethal methods have been tried.

The answer you are looking for is yes !

GL31 has been issued which covers Pigeons causing crop damage. While our field sports organisations and NGO are saying its unworkable and flawed and are putting up a case to DEFRA for it to be amended, I would suggest that is not going to happen for some time. DEFRA is only now in the process of gathering information and trying to sort out the unholy mess that Natural England has created, so I wouldnt hold my breath waiting for an amended and simplified GL31.

Providing you can show damage is being caused and you have tried non-lethal methods to deter them, crack on; but take the time to read through the licence and ensure your landowner can support your claim that all non-lethal methods have been tried and damage to crops warrants shooting them as a last resort.

[the hitman]

Thank you for the information.

JJsDad, that’s great and very well explained.

I will indeed inform my farmer friends your advice about non lethal methods first.

 

Hitman 

[JJsDad]

9 hours ago, the hitman said:

inform my farmer friends your advice about non lethal methods first.

Further to my earlier comments; make sure you and your farmer are singing from the same hymn sheet. If necessary, print and take him a copy of GL31 so that in the highly unlikely event you were questioned he can explain his efforts before resorting to calling you in. I would also gather up all spent cartridges, if I have fired 35 for only 15 birds; with tongue firmly in cheek, I would say, "Look, Officer. I fired 20 shots to scare them but the little **** kept coming back". See the italics below, pasted from GL31. My bouncers and magnet, as per underlined portion are out in the field as a deterent not as an attractant; these little pearls of wisdom are as advised by Natural England !!! 😂

Preventing serious damage to growing crops (excluding fruit and vegetables)
Category Advice on methods
Scaring and deterrents
 Use a wide range of devices and methods, varying them as often as possible, and use active human scaring. Random movement,
sound, and unpredictability help prevent the birds getting used to scaring devices.
 Woodpigeon models (particularly those with outstretched wings, showing the white wing bars) to give the impression of dead birds,
and kites/hawk-kites can be effective in deterring woodpigeons.
 If using scarecrows, make it look as real as possible, dress it in your old clothes, sit it on a chair and put a gun-like stick in its hand,
move it regularly (ideally daily or more frequently). Occasionally change places with the scarecrow, and use this method to shoot to
scare or to kill woodpigeons (under licence).
 Gas cannons, pyrotechnics and recordings of woodpigeon alarm calls can be used effectively, especially when combined with
visual deterrents and shooting to scare. Gas cannons should be moved frequently to maintain their effect.
 Shooting to scare is a highly effective method, especially when combined with other techniques. No licence is required for nonlethal
shooting to scare birds.
 Scaring and lethal shooting (under licence) typically work best if they are linked and woodpigeons associate deterrents with lethal
control and vice versa.
 Scaring is most effective against large flocks of birds, since one bird that is particularly nervous and flies away, will often take the
flock with it.

 

 

 

[Old Boggy]

7 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Further to my earlier comments; make sure you and your farmer are singing from the same hymn sheet. If necessary, print and take him a copy of GL31 so that in the highly unlikely event you were questioned he can explain his efforts before resorting to calling you in. I would also gather up all spent cartridges, if I have fired 35 for only 15 birds; with tongue firmly in cheek, I would say, "Look, Officer. I fired 20 shots to scare them but the little **** kept coming back". See the italics below, pasted from GL31. My bouncers and magnet, as per underlined portion are out in the field as a deterent not as an attractant; these little pearls of wisdom are as advised by Natural England !!! 😂

Preventing serious damage to growing crops (excluding fruit and vegetables)
Category Advice on methods
Scaring and deterrents
 Use a wide range of devices and methods, varying them as often as possible, and use active human scaring. Random movement,
sound, and unpredictability help prevent the birds getting used to scaring devices.
 Woodpigeon models (particularly those with outstretched wings, showing the white wing bars) to give the impression of dead birds,
and kites/hawk-kites can be effective in deterring woodpigeons.
 If using scarecrows, make it look as real as possible, dress it in your old clothes, sit it on a chair and put a gun-like stick in its hand,
move it regularly (ideally daily or more frequently). Occasionally change places with the scarecrow, and use this method to shoot to
scare or to kill woodpigeons (under licence).
 Gas cannons, pyrotechnics and recordings of woodpigeon alarm calls can be used effectively, especially when combined with
visual deterrents and shooting to scare. Gas cannons should be moved frequently to maintain their effect.
 Shooting to scare is a highly effective method, especially when combined with other techniques. No licence is required for nonlethal
shooting to scare birds.
 Scaring and lethal shooting (under licence) typically work best if they are linked and woodpigeons associate deterrents with lethal
control and vice versa.
 Scaring is most effective against large flocks of birds, since one bird that is particularly nervous and flies away, will often take the
flock with it.

 

 

 

I think that you are spot on there JJsDad. Use for flaws in the GL to your advantage.

Well posted.

OB

[JJsDad]

5 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

Use for flaws in the GL to your advantage.

There are a number of people sitting around thinking that the highly flawed 1st edition of GL31 is going to be re-written sometime soon. As DEFRA is only now starting to consult on the whole sorry debacle, with no 100% guarantee they are going to change anything, I think its going to be some considerable time before we see anything to replace it. My personal attitude is, we are going to have to run with what we have have got. If some of the advice is laughably ignorant we should use this to support our reason for shooting Pigeons. The whole sorry mess is going to end up like the `Hunting with Dogs Act` for Fox hunting. The Police and the Huntsman both know the act is flawed and the Police wont turn out unless there is a breach of the peace about to take place.

What no pigeon shooter should even contemplate revealing, is that we shoot Pigeons for enjoyment. My response to being questioned would be that the farmer or his manager had to beg me to turn out in this filthy weather, as all his attempts to drive them away had failed. My hypa flaps have also not scared them off as I was advised by Natural England they would. So as a last resort I had to shoot a few. I fired a lot more shots than I have pigeon, because I have wasted a box of cartridges firing into the air, but still the little devils came back.

I suspect there are not many (if any), non-shooting Police Officers who have got a single clue what GL31 is, or what it actually states.

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, JJsDad said:

There are a number of people sitting around thinking that the highly flawed 1st edition of GL31 is going to be re-written sometime soon. As DEFRA is only now starting to consult on the whole sorry debacle, with no 100% guarantee they are going to change anything, I think its going to be some considerable time before we see anything to replace it. My personal attitude is, we are going to have to run with what we have have got. If some of the advice is laughably ignorant we should use this to support our reason for shooting Pigeons. The whole sorry mess is going to end up like the `Hunting with Dogs Act` for Fox hunting. The Police and the Huntsman both know the act is flawed and the Police wont turn out unless there is a breach of the peace about to take place.

What no pigeon shooter should even contemplate revealing, is that we shoot Pigeons for enjoyment. My response to being questioned would be that the farmer or his manager had to beg me to turn out in this filthy weather, as all his attempts to drive them away had failed. My hypa flaps have also not scared them off as I was advised by Natural England they would. So as a last resort I had to shoot a few. I fired a lot more shots than I have pigeon, because I have wasted a box of cartridges firing into the air, but still the little devils came back.

I suspect there are not many (if any), non-shooting Police Officers who have got a single clue what GL31 is, or what it actually states.

I am a lot more happier now I have got the freedom to carry on more or less like I did before this sorry episode was inflicted on us , as you say part of the requirements for the non lethal methods are well within our favour and I am more than happy to comply with what is required .

On my magnet the wings are spread out , on my two floaters the wings are spread out and I have got some long cradles with a metal band on top to do another requirement in putting a pigeon out with the wings open .

On a good day my average is 2 . 3 and a poor day around half so I am using a number of shells for scaring purposes , also I don't mind putting out a few bags on canes spread around the field as long as they are not to near to my decoys that have the wings spread out .

The only one I wouldn't mess about with is dressing up a scare crow and sitting him on a chair with a stick and then exchange the stick with a gun so I will bypass the first bit and with me looking like a scare crow I will happily sit there with my gun.

So like I said at the beginning , I can now more or less carry on as I always have done without the fear of doing anything wrong , and when I look back over the last 50 odd years and only had one complaint about the noise frightening some horses that were over 300 yds away and was told by the village copper to carry on as I wasn't doing anything wrong so the chances of being approached by the law or any other official are virtually nil , and if they ever did I would bring the above as plan B into play.

Let us all put most of the past two weeks behind us and just get back out there while we can   

 

[JJsDad]

57 minutes ago, marsh man said:

I look back over the last 50 odd years

In much the same time scale, I can only recall one approach by the Police as a result of me Pigeon shooting. I was approached by a slightly wary WPC about 3 years ago in all her black clobber, as a result of a dog walker reported seeing my car parked in a field. She was concerned that it was stolen & dumped by the local yobbery. While having a chat she was admiring my 2 Springers and revealed she had in her car one of only 2 cadavar-detection dogs in Kent. I questioned her on their training, which is somewhat gruesome to say the least; but the whole 20 minutes we stood chatting it was all very friendly and not once did she mention general licence`s or my reasons for shooting the small number of birds that I had shot.

[old'un]

13 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

In much the same time scale, I can only recall one approach by the Police as a result of me Pigeon shooting. I was approached by a slightly wary WPC about 3 years ago in all her black clobber, as a result of a dog walker reported seeing my car parked in a field. She was concerned that it was stolen & dumped by the local yobbery. While having a chat she was admiring my 2 Springers and revealed she had in her car one of only 2 cadavar-detection dogs in Kent. I questioned her on their training, which is somewhat gruesome to say the least; but the whole 20 minutes we stood chatting it was all very friendly and not once did she mention general licence`s or my reasons for shooting the small number of birds that I had shot.

I don’t think its so much the police who is likely to challenge you, but possibly a member of the anti brigade, once that situation arises the police may well become involved.  

[JJsDad]

26 minutes ago, old'un said:

but possibly a member of the anti brigade

We are somewhat fortunate in that most of our areas are off the beaten track. We also run a small syndicate on the same ground and the only time we have experience of anti`s is when the London yobs descended on Dover Port protesting about export of sheep and veal calves a number of years back. We found 5 having a boozing session around a campfire in one wood, having spent the night there. After threatening to stick our shotguns where the sun doesnt shine, we rang the local Police and lo and behold they upsticks and left; needless to say they left their empty beer cans for us to clear up. The great British eco-warriors at their finest.

Edited May 8, 2019 by JJsDad

[stockybasher]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

I don’t think its so much the police who is likely to challenge you, but possibly a member of the anti brigade, once that situation arises the police may well become involved.  

Trespass by them then

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, JJsDad said:

In much the same time scale, I can only recall one approach by the Police as a result of me Pigeon shooting. I was approached by a slightly wary WPC about 3 years ago in all her black clobber, as a result of a dog walker reported seeing my car parked in a field. She was concerned that it was stolen & dumped by the local yobbery. While having a chat she was admiring my 2 Springers and revealed she had in her car one of only 2 cadavar-detection dogs in Kent. I questioned her on their training, which is somewhat gruesome to say the least; but the whole 20 minutes we stood chatting it was all very friendly and not once did she mention general licence`s or my reasons for shooting the small number of birds that I had shot.

Good point brought up about your own motor parked off the beaten track and members of the public reporting them as possibly nicked to the authorities .

Most of the land I go on have been long term and when I have changed motors the first thing I do is to inform the land owners of the change of cars and to give them my new reg number , this can save a lot of hassel to both the police and the owners of the land you are shooting on . 

Prevention is better than cure .

[Savhmr]

1 hour ago, stockybasher said:

Trespass by them then

They don't need to.  Long lens on video cam or stills camera or drone.  They could also take your car reg and report that they saw you shooting (giving location).  However, given how tied up, overstretched and under funded the police are right now, it's mainly shooters tying themselves in knots about possible consequences, not the public or the police.  Advice is just crack on providing it's for the protection of crops as long as you've attempted to scare them.  Whilst the licence seems onerous, what is deemed reasonable in court is highly unlikely to be all methods employed (gas cannon/scarecrow/"models" (you can convincingly argue that models will act as decoys and that decoys can also be seen as models), waving your arms about etc).  It's harder to prove that you haven't done these things by a prosecution if you have a signed and dated sheet of paper which says that you did which is why the police are likely not going to start coming down on the GL.  Most of the cases wouldn't stand up in court unless the wording is changed to be far more specific on records/evidence.  As things stands, there's nothing overly onerous other than saying you've complied...all imho of course.

Yes, the GL is flawed but so was the old one.  I can't see any real change on how things are implemented with one possible exception and that's as pigeon are not on the game list covered by the Game Act of 1831 as amended, sport shooting for the pot such as in woodland is not possible to defend (ludicrously) under the current GL.  Shooting Orgs should be using their collective brains and arguing a case for moving pigeon onto the Game Act.  I'd be perfectly happy to not shoot them out of say a 6 to 8 week nesting season and then have dibs the rest of the year.  They're obviously an eating bird so should be lumped in with pheasant, duck, woodcock and other game birds.  The only risk here is that the powers that be would introduce a stupidly short season, but as these are also pests, that's unlikely to be the case (ie are rabbit covered by a closed season?  Nope...they breed year round though but the point is they can be pests too so can be controlled).  

Lets not kid ourselves.  Packham won't stop with his feathered friends...this will eventually spin round to ground quarry too.  We need to be forewarned, sensible and proactive.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Savhmr

[JJsDad]

8 minutes ago, Savhmr said:

They could also take your car reg and report that they saw you shooting (giving location).

In which case, I am complying with GL31 by shooting into the air to scare them away. As you quite rightly say, its not the Police or anti-shooting brigade that are making a big thing about this, its ourselves trying to out-guess all the possibilities of breaking the law contained in the new GL.

No-one really gave to much notice to what was contained in the old GL04 until all this chaos kicked off.

[mossy835]

you will safe by just shooting in the air,that way your safe fron any convictions,because if you cant prove you have done it all right, you get done,as said i will stick to rabbits, and squirreles.fox