Wild Justices response to call for evidence.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

 

 But there was no point this is not about steel or lead as you keep reminding me is it?

No, it isn't. It's about Avery, Packham, WJ, wetlands trust, etc etc etc doing their utmost to stop us shooting live quarry for sport.  None of them could care less whether we're using steel, lead, copper or ping pong balls; they just want to stop us shooting live quarry for sport. You can bang on about the merits of steel over lead until the cows come home, but none of it will placate those who oppose us. 

It's NOT about lead, it's NOT about steel; it's about stopping us from shooting live quarry for sport. It's that simple. 

[Saltings]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

No, it isn't. It's about Avery, Packham, WJ, wetlands trust, etc etc etc doing their utmost to stop us shooting live quarry for sport.  None of them could care less whether we're using steel, lead, copper or ping pong balls; they just want to stop us shooting live quarry for sport. You can bang on about the merits of steel over lead until the cows come home, but none of it will placate those who oppose us. 

It's NOT about lead, it's NOT about steel; it's about stopping us from shooting live quarry for sport. It's that simple. 

agree its not about lead or non toxic shot efficiency , if the cant get us in general licence , intimidation on shoot days ets . Come through the back door and ban lead shot no end of guys will say my old guns are worth nothing I am getting too old to change and will give their licence up end result achieved . We have to watch attacks from all angles from hunting / shooting / fishing / and all country sports.   Together we are strong divided we fall while we argue they are coming at us from another angle

not a lot of lead in shot these days loads of junk metal far cheaper and does not distort so gives a tighter pattern only commercially loaded calibers are compliant to non toxic if vintage (muzzle loaders and commercially obsolete calibers lead shot is still within the law ) only commercially available calibers have to comply  

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Saltings

[old man]

10 hours ago, Scully said:

No, it isn't. It's about Avery, Packham, WJ, wetlands trust, etc etc etc doing their utmost to stop us shooting live quarry for sport.  None of them could care less whether we're using steel, lead, copper or ping pong balls; they just want to stop us shooting live quarry for sport. You can bang on about the merits of steel over lead until the cows come home, but none of it will placate those who oppose us. 

It's NOT about lead, it's NOT about steel; it's about stopping us from shooting live quarry for sport. It's that simple. 

👍

[lancer425]

11 hours ago, Scully said:

 

It's NOT about lead, it's NOT about steel; it's about stopping us from shooting live quarry for sport. It's that simple. 

Agreed and in the response from WJ to the consultation for pigeons suggested that non tox be used for shooting these birds, so in the context of this thread it is about Non tox and why we are discussing it in the first place here.

  These people are motivated and connected, Juniper is as an individual in my opinion a very dangerous man in a very dangerous position to our cause.  The outcome of these New general licences could re shape our future, because one thing we can be sure of is this is the first wave of many more to come. 

 NE have way too much power power that as real potential to change these Islands forever, We should be getting behind the likes of BASC 100% and encouraging all we know to join them, Instead Up to the Time of the GLs withdrawal More than a few threads on this forum had a BASC bashing angle to them, and even the first night of the GL withdrawal news was full of BASC negativity. quite frankly with out BASC and admitted some other organisations we would be well and truly sitting ducks.

[JJsDad]

12 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

More than a few threads on this forum had a BASC bashing angle to them, and even the first night of the GL withdrawal news was full of BASC negativity.

Well said, you are perfectly correct !  In addition there is more than one member on this forum who in one thread was lambasting BASC for not doing enough and then when someone put up a thread concerning who had carried out the on-line survey and who was a member, admitted to not being a member !!

Unbelievable; slags off BASC for not being proactive enough but is happy with their submission to Defra but keeps his hands in his pockets when it comes to supporting our organisations.

Edited May 19, 2019 by JJsDad

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Agreed and in the response from WJ to the consultation for pigeons suggested that non tox be used for shooting these birds, so in the context of this thread it is about Non tox and why we are discussing it in the first place here.

  These people are motivated and connected, Juniper is as an individual in my opinion a very dangerous man in a very dangerous position to our cause.  The outcome of these New general licences could re shape our future, because one thing we can be sure of is this is the first wave of many more to come. 

 NE have way too much power power that as real potential to change these Islands forever, We should be getting behind the likes of BASC 100% and encouraging all we know to join them, Instead Up to the Time of the GLs withdrawal More than a few threads on this forum had a BASC bashing angle to them, and even the first night of the GL withdrawal news was full of BASC negativity. quite frankly with out BASC and admitted some other organisations we would be well and truly sitting ducks.

🤔 We're going round in circles here and I'm starting to find it quite frustrating!

We are discussing non toxic shot in this thread because you were in agreement with Averys' suggestion that we should shoot pigeons with non toxic shot, and that we should be willing to do so as some sort of 'compromise' by which WJ would then allow us to do so! Can you not see why he has suggested this? 

Avery has suggested that non toxic should be used for the shooting of pigeons entering the human food chain, agreed. What you seem to be overlooking however, is why has he suggested this, when it was found that despite all the antis claims to the contrary, traces of lead in shot game was found to be of insignificant threat to humans? Can you not see what the next logical step would be in their campaign to eradicate shooting in the UK?

I find it staggering that given the incessant bombardment from all angles; the media, politicians, police and antis, that shooting sports go through, and the incessant defence against that bombardment and the hoops ( oft times totally unnecessary ) we have to go through to stay legit', there are still people out there willing to cede to an agenda driven campaign as a 'compromise', and even worse, who can't seem to see it for what it is! 

I despair at times, I really do. I'm out. 

 

[wymberley]

27 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Agreed and in the response from WJ to the consultation for pigeons suggested that non tox be used for shooting these birds, so in the context of this thread it is about Non tox and why we are discussing it in the first place here.

I THINK we're discussing it because somebody wanted to. Unless we wish to have the spirit of the GLs altered from their original intent - vermin control/crop protection - to something different - sport and/or food - there's no need for this discussion and as such any pain is self inflicted. However, the choice is ours but, as ever, we need to be careful what we wish for.

 

  These people are motivated and connected, Juniper is as an individual in my opinion a very dangerous man in a very dangerous position to our cause.  The outcome of these New general licences could re shape our future, because one thing we can be sure of is this is the first wave of many more to come.

CAN DO nowt but agree to an extent. However,what with the LAG and the Oxford symposium thingy, things were looking iffy, but common sense prevailed. Yep, we need to be paying attention, but paranoia is not obligatory.

 NE have way too much power power that as real potential to change these Islands forever, We should be getting behind the likes of BASC 100% and encouraging all we know to join them, Instead Up to the Time of the GLs withdrawal More than a few threads on this forum had a BASC bashing angle to them, and even the first night of the GL withdrawal news was full of BASC negativity. quite frankly with out BASC and admitted some other organisations we would be well and truly sitting ducks.

AS A ONE time member for over half a lifetime and holding three honorary titles and who in the past has been critical of BASC, I find the blanket 'BASC  bashing' phrase somewhat crass. Heaven help us because it it ever becomes such that criticism is deemed 'treasonable', then that is the point when we have lost and the antis have won.

 

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, JJsDad said:

You are perfectly correct !  In addition there is more than one member on this forum who in one thread was lambasting BASC for not doing enough and then when someone put up a thread concerning who had carried out the on-line survey and who was a member, admitted to not being a member !!

Unbelievable; slags off BASC for not being proactive enough but is happy with their submission to Defra but keeps his hands in his pockets when it comes to supporting out organisations.

Exactly. Its very easy for any keyboard warrior to slag off BASC and they are not 100% what organisation is lets face it the government duly ellected are not exactly lilly white are they, the Government cover ups in our history make the management issues BASC had recently look like a drop in the ocean.

 We need to get behind BASC they are simply ALL WE HAVE. The Game Keepers and one or two other organisations have helped so far , but BASC have been the mainstay of our cause, and if they are successful or not we can rest assured they did their best.

Lets crawl out from under the GL wreckage for just a fleeting moment, and lets imagine we wake up in this next few days/ weeks to a new GL or a law change that truly reflects the needs of the countryside rather than the whimsical rhetoric of WJ.  Should that day ever come we can in a perfect world get firmly behind BASC work with them not against them, in division lays disaster for the future of our sport , and shooters as a group can not agree on anything for longer than ten minutes.  Our opposite number on the anti camp are in stark contrast unified they are driven they GET ALONG!  Its that simple. So so many of the threads on these boards end up containing some comment on BASCs allegedly woeful inadequacies their apparent constant preoccupation with money, their need for a shining new RANGE ROVER EACH when BASC bashers  all know they should turn up important meetings in a EX gas board VW caddy van. 

 BASC are a well organised focused organisation and they are the best defence the shooters of this country have in the difficult times we find our selves in today.

[wymberley]

" Exactly. Its very easy for any keyboard warrior to slag off BASC"

Thank you. The final point in my last post proven without any further effort from me.

On this one, I'm now with Scully.

[lancer425]

15 minutes ago, Scully said:

🤔 We're going round in circles here and I'm starting to find it quite frustrating!

We are discussing non toxic shot in this thread because you were in agreement with Averys' suggestion that we should shoot pigeons with non toxic shot, and that we should be willing to do so as some sort of 'compromise' by which WJ would then allow us to do so! Can you not see why he has suggested this? 

Avery has suggested that non toxic should be used for the shooting of pigeons entering the human food chain, agreed. What you seem to be overlooking however, is why has he suggested this, when it was found that despite all the antis claims to the contrary, traces of lead in shot game was found to be of insignificant threat to humans? Can you not see what the next logical step would be in their campaign to eradicate shooting in the UK?

I find it staggering that given the incessant bombardment from all angles; the media, politicians, police and antis, that shooting sports go through, and the incessant defence against that bombardment and the hoops ( oft times totally unnecessary ) we have to go through to stay legit', there are still people out there willing to cede to an agenda driven campaign as a 'compromise', and even worse, who can't seem to see it for what it is! 

I despair at times, I really do. I'm out. 

 

Kindly dont accuse me of siding with Averey to suit your own agenda here, i advocated a change in heart where no compromise other than the shot type we our selves chose to use, might just prevent a out and out ban so some of us who need to use lead can perhaps keep using it where it is needed. Your advocating digging your heels in and standing behind the fact we fended off a lead ban relatively recently so we have right on our side.

 We all know its not lead thats a problem it never was, but at this very moment in time we have some moral high ground in that reserch suported us enough to prevent a lead ban.

 We want to keep that status not just sit on it hoping that the tide wont move today and we get our feet wet again. Its LEAD its TOXIC there is no getting away from this.  Research in the world today as governments changing their attitudes to lead and reintroductions are ongoing as we speak. If those of us who can reduce the amount of Lead we put out where we can, with no risk to us others our modern guns or practical loss in efficiencey , what can we lose ?

What is this about really ? Your Pride can not be seen to be moving even if its strategic withdrawal to the Whims of avery and co.  Its not about giving in or agreeing, its about trying to keep in front, trying to have something to show other than look at us we just kept on hunting on lead because we could.

 Nothing to be lost in using non tox there just bisnt , no guns to be killed there are allternatives, Why dont we just use it where we can you dont run your petrol engines on 4 star just because you can still get it. Why use a modern or suitable gun on Lead where steel could do, WHATS TO LOOSE!.

 I think this is about PRIDE the SEEN to be not complying with the WJ camps ideas aspect not about keeping Lead long term and sticking two fingers up at them when we are still shooting it years after they wanted it long gone.

11 minutes ago, wymberley said:

" Exactly. Its very easy for any keyboard warrior to slag off BASC"

Thank you. The final point in my last post proven without any further effort from me.

On this one, I'm now with Scully.

Was that ever in doubt.?

[old man]

48 minutes ago, wymberley said:

" Exactly. Its very easy for any keyboard warrior to slag off BASC"

Thank you. The final point in my last post proven without any further effort from me.

On this one, I'm now with Scully.

Me too.

[mick miller]

I didn't initially make the connection. The lawyers WJ used to bring the challenge to the GL's are the same bunch that brought the cases against our returning troops from Iraq. Leigh Day.

He/ they choose the people they wish to associate with quite carefully it seems.

As for the lead issue, it always was, and still is, nothing other than a trojan horse. Let it in and the rest will inevitably collapse too.

Edited May 20, 2019 by mick miller

[Saltings]

12 hours ago, mick miller said:

I didn't initially make the connection. The lawyers WJ used to bring the challenge to the GL's are the same bunch that brought the cases against our returning troops from Iraq. Leigh Day.

He/ they choose the people they wish to associate with quite carefully it seems.

As for the lead issue, it always was, and still is, nothing other than a trojan horse. Let it in and the rest will inevitably collapse too.

underhanded ambulance chasers with underhanded conservationists peas in a pod 

mrs called me in yesterday as watching country file re sea eagles taking lambs in Scotland 

I am born and bread country she is town  the program to her reiterated what I have being saying all along  its all about balance in the right environment  .  its all about a healthy balance of all species rather than troughs and peaks that birdie people can use against shooting without evidence  , if a healthy population of all species ,we have no case to answer , in their eyes hook billed killers at the detriment of other species who  in the end up dying of starvation dew to over population is blamed on shooting / poisoning  without evidence  and when they decline a big whoop about reintroducing predation species all over again 

balance  is key  regardless of Packham types social media or tv  / 

factual media information is key for the ill informed  food does not come from Tesco it comes from the countryside 

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, it must be very very disheartening for those sheep farmers in Scotland to see this happen after years of work getting a good flock of sheep together, then come lambing time this happens, it is bad enough loosing some to foxes but that can be dealt with, i am sure a few will eventually give up sheep farming, as for the Isle OF White i am sure farmers there will not be happy either,  

[panoma1]

Packham is quoted today as saying he has never been against shooting or culling to protect species further down the chain......and it is sometimes neccesary he uses deer as an example!

What he is against is shooting for sport....so, as I thought, he is ok with shooting as long as the shooter doesn't enjoy it!!

That raises the question if culling and predator control is, as he concedes, necessary? And can only be done by those that don't enjoy it! ................Who the **** is he gonna get to do it?

 

 

[Good shot?]

And what would it cost the landowners etc.

[panoma1]

12 minutes ago, Good shot? said:

And what would it cost the landowners etc.

Well **** them I suppose? As under Packhams law, only people who don't enjoy shooting live quarry can shoot for culling and predator control purposes.....that means the landowner cannot charge because.........only those who enjoy shooting live quarry would be prepared pay!

Free shooting for all eh!...............But don't show you enjoy it!

Edited May 21, 2019 by panoma1

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, it must be very very disheartening for those sheep farmers in Scotland to see this happen after years of work getting a good flock of sheep together, then come lambing time this happens, it is bad enough loosing some to foxes but that can be dealt with, i am sure a few will eventually give up sheep farming, as for the Isle OF White i am sure farmers there will not be happy either,  

Although they will probably eat all the brown hares first then move onto the lambs 

[mick miller]

6 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Packham is quoted today as saying he has never been against shooting or culling to protect species further down the chain......and it is sometimes neccesary he uses deer as an example!

What he is against is shooting for sport....so, as I thought, he is ok with shooting as long as the shooter doesn't enjoy it!!

That raises the question if culling and predator control is, as he concedes, necessary? And can only be done by those that don't enjoy it! ................Who the **** is he gonna get to do it?

Easy then. Take an onion with you when foxing, pigeon shooting, stalking. After you have finsihed and feel the need to take your ubiquitous trophy shot for Facebook to get your likes and feel better about yourself, simply cut the onion in half, inhale, wait five minutes then take the shot with your red, streaming eyes. Just remember not to smile.

[sanibel686]

We have been hunter gatherers for around 1.8 million years pretty much since the dawn of homo erectus (hey you boy no sniggering at the back!) when the "hunter" part of "hunter gatherer" became hard wired into our DNA.

This is in part why, in my opinion, we are hard wired to enjoy our sport. The same thrill of the chase, greater peer status through the execution of superior field craft, bringing home the bacon (or pigeon breasts) etc.

Pack Man is attempting to reclassify us as perverts/criminals and his insidious agenda would have us reduced to existing as mere "gatherers".  Of course once a law is passed we will outwardly comply but how long will it take for the hunter yearning to exit our DNA? another 1.8 million years?

He has the perfect platform to sow his propaganda and he is imposing an almost Catholic sense of guilt (for "doing nothing") onto anyone in power who will listen. It is naive to think the march of this individual and his band could be stopped or even disabled by reasoned debate. What is needed is to meet them with the same level of cunning, vitriol and contempt they have shown for us.  I don't know exactly what this would look like but I know I would contribute to crowdfunding it, as they did.

 

[mick miller]

12 hours ago, sanibel686 said:

We have been hunter gatherers for around 1.8 million years pretty much since the dawn of homo erectus (hey you boy no sniggering at the back!) when the "hunter" part of "hunter gatherer" became hard wired into our DNA.

This is in part why, in my opinion, we are hard wired to enjoy our sport. The same thrill of the chase, greater peer status through the execution of superior field craft, bringing home the bacon (or pigeon breasts) etc.

Pack Man is attempting to reclassify us as perverts/criminals and his insidious agenda would have us reduced to existing as mere "gatherers".  Of course once a law is passed we will outwardly comply but how long will it take for the hunter yearning to exit our DNA? another 1.8 million years?

He has the perfect platform to sow his propaganda and he is imposing an almost Catholic sense of guilt (for "doing nothing") onto anyone in power who will listen. It is naive to think the march of this individual and his band could be stopped or even disabled by reasoned debate. What is needed is to meet them with the same level of cunning, vitriol and contempt they have shown for us.  I don't know exactly what this would look like but I know I would contribute to crowdfunding it, as they did.

 

My sentiments entirely. 

[lancer425]

15 hours ago, sanibel686 said:

We have been hunter gatherers for around 1.8 million years pretty much since the dawn of homo erectus (hey you boy no sniggering at the back!) when the "hunter" part of "hunter gatherer" became hard wired into our DNA.

This is in part why, in my opinion, we are hard wired to enjoy our sport. The same thrill of the chase, greater peer status through the execution of superior field craft, bringing home the bacon (or pigeon breasts) etc.

Pack Man is attempting to reclassify us as perverts/criminals and his insidious agenda would have us reduced to existing as mere "gatherers".  Of course once a law is passed we will outwardly comply but how long will it take for the hunter yearning to exit our DNA? another 1.8 million years?

He has the perfect platform to sow his propaganda and he is imposing an almost Catholic sense of guilt (for "doing nothing") onto anyone in power who will listen. It is naive to think the march of this individual and his band could be stopped or even disabled by reasoned debate. What is needed is to meet them with the same level of cunning, vitriol and contempt they have shown for us.  I don't know exactly what this would look like but I know I would contribute to crowdfunding it, as they did.

 

A good post.