Brexit - merged threads

[Raja Clavata]

19 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Or as some might say

 "Unicorns"

Not very original

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

He is a bit 'nasal: when he speaks 😂

However the word on the street is Chukkas not unknown for certain excesses... 

Apparently the reason he pulled the plug on his leadership bid which led to Corbyn, a bit sad really. Actually, a lot sad.

21 hours ago, pinfireman said:

But the Brexit Party is growing, and gaining a lot of very capable people along the way! Unlike the current crop of lawyers, trade union officials and general nobodies, The Brexit Party is gaining recruits from Business etc.....people who have actually done a proper days work! People who can run things.....plus, as you are probably aware, the incompetent Civil Service run most things on behalf of the government of the day!

Missed it's opportunity to grow the number seats it has in parliament though no doubt some would spin it and suggest they doubled their number of parliamentary seats, tripled even.

Still a party with no policies other than a mixed message on Brexit...

[Rewulf]

36 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I might be wrong but you have no way of credibly claiming your position is the correct one.

Tell me an instance of reform within the EU in the last 10 years.

Has it loosened its grip on ever closer union, pulled back on its federal superstate aims ?

Give me an example of what you would call reform.
Countries have reformed, theyve had to or they will lose support of the people, the EU has usually resisted this , or threatened sanctions , look at the way they treated the Catalans, or the Polish judiciary, Greece.
National sovereignty  is a dirty word in Brussels, and nationalism is something akin to devil worship.

As I said, there is no mechanism within the EU for reform, no way to propose it, and no real way to oppose further integration.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Rewulf

[Raja Clavata]

We both know there hasn't been much, the Bratislav roadmap was supposed to be bring out about and i understand that your position is probably that it only exists to try to shore up the EU against further absconders rather than real reform. But they are under unprecedented pressure from anemic member states and the rise of nationalist / populist agendas across the bloc. Previous form is not necessarily an indication of future behaviour but I understand your skepticism.

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

We both know there hasn't been much, the Bratislav roadmap was supposed to be bring out about and i understand that your position is probably that it only exists to try to shore up the EU against further absconders rather than real reform. But they are under unprecedented pressure from anemic member states and the rise of nationalist / populist agendas across the bloc. Previous form is not necessarily an indication of future behaviour but I understand your skepticism.

No , there hasn't been ANY, and any attempt at it has been crushed, in this respect previous form is EVERY indication of future behaviour, history confirms this entirely.

But look what you did, you blamed lack of reform on member states inability to tackle nationalism and populism!!  Surely you realise that if the EU wasnt so rigid, and resistant to reform, many of these agencies would not exist, or at least be extremely weakened? 

[Raja Clavata]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

But look what you did, you blamed lack of reform on member states inability to tackle nationalism and populism!!  Surely you realise that if the EU wasnt so rigid, and resistant to reform, many of these agencies would not exist, or at least be extremely weakened? 

Eh, what, how, when? I did nothing of the sort, i was suggesting that the rise of nationalism and populism will hopefully be the catalyst for reform! I was in no way implying what you appear to have interpreted?

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Eh, what, how, when? I did nothing of the sort, i was suggesting that the rise of nationalism and populism will hopefully be the catalyst for reform! I was in no way implying what you appear to have interpreted?

Apologies if I've interpreted it wrong. 

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Apologies if I've interpreted it wrong. 

👍

[Newbie to this]

21 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not very original

I know mate, that's why there are quotation marks and it states "or as some might say"

Edited June 9, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Gordon R]

[pinfireman]

On 08/06/2019 at 09:53, Vince Green said:

Natalie McGarry, former SNP MP and active remain supporter was jailed this week for 18 months for embezzling money that was in her care during her time as an MP, they managed to keep that very quiet didn't they?

Not much on that paragon of virtue, the BBC.

[pinfireman]

On 08/06/2019 at 12:16, Raja Clavata said:

The published figures on outsourcing show about 15%, I'm assuming by saying it's nearly all gone you contest that figure (by definition quite a bit more than 50%)?

The issue with the yanks getting involved is that it's likely to evaporate at an alarming rate and we don't have a great track record of maintaining service levels in industries that have been privatised in this country. The NHS is far bigger and much more complicated than the others, therefore numerous ways it can go tits up and it will have a direct impact on the public.

I don't necessarily agree with you on this, I think the current political landscape in Europe is and will continue to see reforms - I might be wrong but you have no way of credibly claiming your position is the correct one. One thing I agree on is that the EU needs to reform or it will burn. I believe we are better placed than most other member states when that happens and this is part of my reasoning for my favouring remaining part of the bloc, for now.

Why is it likely to "evaporate" and in what way? It,s highly unlikely, as any political party in this country that openly allowed that, would be signing its own death warrant!

As for the EU reforming, I,m looking out of my window to see if Hell is freezing over!

On 08/06/2019 at 12:24, Raja Clavata said:

Not very original

Apparently the reason he pulled the plug on his leadership bid which led to Corbyn, a bit sad really. Actually, a lot sad.

Missed it's opportunity to grow the number seats it has in parliament though no doubt some would spin it and suggest they doubled their number of parliamentary seats, tripled even.

Still a party with no policies other than a mixed message on Brexit...

A party 8 weeks old, against a party with an 90 year old establishment in Peterborough, with all the relevant data etc?  A very near miss, and as some suspect, may have been even nearer if we did not have postal voting!

On 08/06/2019 at 14:47, Raja Clavata said:

We both know there hasn't been much, the Bratislav roadmap was supposed to be bring out about and i understand that your position is probably that it only exists to try to shore up the EU against further absconders rather than real reform. But they are under unprecedented pressure from anemic member states and the rise of nationalist / populist agendas across the bloc. Previous form is not necessarily an indication of future behaviour but I understand your skepticism.

and a failing economy in Germany, France and Italy?

[Bazooka Joe]

And the EU isn't corrupt....

PUBLIC INQUIRY CALLED FOR! There is huge, growing support to investigate Olly Robbins, Gavin Barwell and Sedwill who secretly promised the EU to buy off Brexit supporters in Parliament.

https://twitter.com/ActionBrexit/status/1137681519282130945

Edited June 9, 2019 by Bazooka Joe

[Vince Green]

14 hours ago, pinfireman said:

A party 8 weeks old, against a party with an 90 year old establishment in Peterborough, with all the relevant data etc?  A very near miss, and as some suspect, may have been even nearer if we did not have postal voting!

 

Yes it now turns out that Labour's vote rigging Guru Tariq Mahmood who was convicted in 2008 of postal vote rigging was "employed" to do his stuff in the Peterborough byelection last week.

He was also employed in the election win for Fiona Onasanya. - well well! Now that's a big suprisei   

Typical Labour dirty tricks but what they do is not subtle or sophisticated, it should be easy to prevent it happening 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Vince Green

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Yes it now turns out that Labour's vote rigging Guru Tariq Mahmood who was convicted in 2008 of postal vote rigging was "employed" to do his stuff in the Peterborough byelection last week.

He was also employed in the election win for Fiona Onasanya. - well well! Now that's a big suprisei   

Typical Labour dirty tricks but what they do is not subtle or sophisticated, it should be easy to prevent it happening 

No surprise there then!

[oowee]

14 hours ago, pinfireman said:

 

and a failing economy in Germany, France and Italy?

You forgot Portugal and Ireland and Greece. I woul take a 'failing German' economy over ours any day of the week. 🤣

Edited June 10, 2019 by oowee

[TIGHTCHOKE]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

You forgot Portugal and Ireland and Greece. I woul take a 'failing German' economy over ours any day of the week. 🤣

Move while you can then!

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Move while you can then!

Whilst it might sound like sour grapes, this is very interesting. https://www.politicalite.com/election-2019/exclusive-fraud-convicts-and-ethnic-exploitation-how-peterborough-was-really-won/

When you get millions spent on the NCA investigating imaginary Russian money going into Vote Leaves campaign, Labours dirty tricks department gets no attention at all ?

“They arranged for postal and ballot papers to be sent not to the voter but to addresses with which each defendant was connected.”

Detectives began an inquiry after voters complained, jurors were told.

At the time of his imprisonment, Tariq Mahmood was the Peterborough Labour Party’s Secretary.

Det Insp Ian Tandy said he was satisfied with the length of sentences.

“This hopefully will act as a deterrent and send out a message that election fraud will be investigated and prosecuted,” he said. 

But, as Politicalite exclusively revealed, this conviction did nothing to disuade Tariq and the others from continuing to take leading roles within the local Labour election team – supported and endorsed by the branch’s leader, Shaz Nawaz; a close friend of criminal fraudster Mahmood.

During the election of Fiona Onasanya, Tariq was once again given full reign during the Labour election campaign, and was even listed by the party as an official nominee, also giving him special access to the count room – much to the disgust of local residents and politicians.

Mahmood was also found to have made racist and extremist remarks on Facebook during the election campaign in which he alleged that Theresa May had been behind recent terrorist attacks.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The man is just "Bad News" and should not be allowed to get involved!!!!!!!!

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

The man is just "Bad News" and should not be allowed to get involved!!!!!!!!

Thats the point, Liebour say hes not !

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7120267/Labours-election-victory-marred-claims-convicted-vote-rigger-centre-campaign.html

Jeremy Corbyn faced claims that an ex-Labour member jailed for a postal vote scam had provided vital help in fighting off Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party by just 683 votes.

But local Tories claimed Mahmood, pictured sporting a red rosette at the by-election count, was ‘front and centre’ of Labour’s bid to mobilise the Muslim vote.

He was also photographed with Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn last month, as well as being pictured with eventual by-election winner Lisa Forbes.

With the delightful Ms Onasanya on her win.

Labour branded the allegation ‘false and baseless’ yesterday, saying that he was ‘not involved in the running of Labour’s campaign in any way’. 

Party sources also claimed it was ‘factually incorrect’ to claim Labour had won because of the Muslim vote, pointing out that Peterborough was ‘82.5 per cent white’.

But whats 17.5 % among 'friends ?

[Vince Green]

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

You forgot Portugal and Ireland and Greece. I woul take a 'failing German' economy over ours any day of the week. 🤣

Yes but you miss the point, the EU is in denial because it has no ability to reverse what is going wrong. They cannot reform because they have no mechanism for reform. They are a round table at which every member has to agree. That is its fatal flaw and what we should be focused on.

People keep suggesting we should stay in the EU and try to bring about reform from within but they do not realise that will never be possible, so in my view leaving is our only option .

[oowee]

32 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Yes but you miss the point, the EU is in denial because it has no ability to reverse what is going wrong. They cannot reform because they have no mechanism for reform. They are a round table at which every member has to agree. That is its fatal flaw and what we should be focused on.

People keep suggesting we should stay in the EU and try to bring about reform from within but they do not realise that will never be possible, so in my view leaving is our only option .

Reform takes place where the members push for change. The EU is the sum of its members. If the members want change it will change. The beauty of the accession states is the dilution of the power of the founding members. The strength of the EU is its resiliance and collective long term direction set by members. 

The weakness of any UK government is the short term nature of its policies. A global system requires long term strategy and following policies that the EU provides. 

[Raja Clavata]

15 hours ago, pinfireman said:

Why is it likely to "evaporate" and in what way? It,s highly unlikely, as any political party in this country that openly allowed that, would be signing its own death warrant!

Spiraling costs and a reduction in services. My issue isn't with it going to the Americans specifically but the fact that it would represent another foundation of UK society being taken over. But, the US interest here is purely a commercial one. To be honest though I don't see why I should need to be justifying my opinion on this. What are your motives in believing it would be good for the UK public?

As for the EU reforming, I,m looking out of my window to see if Hell is freezing over!

Fair enough

A party 8 weeks old, against a party with an 90 year old establishment in Peterborough, with all the relevant data etc?  A very near miss, and as some suspect, may have been even nearer if we did not have postal voting!

That's tosh though really, yes the party is weeks old but it's a one man one policy party, Farage has been a round long enough and it's taken the votes away from UKIP. So it's not a weeks old party in the same ilk as Change (and I'm not defending or promoting Change) and based on the EU elections it can't claim to have widespread support from any more than the original dye in the wool Brexit voters from 2016 (about a third).

 

[Raja Clavata]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Reform takes place where the members push for change. The EU is the sum of its members. If the members want change it will change. The beauty of the accession states is the dilution of the power of the founding members. The strength of the EU is its resiliance and collective long term direction set by members. 

The weakness of any UK government is the short term nature of its policies. A global system requires long term strategy and following policies that the EU provides. 

Being in the minority does not necessarily make us wrong. 👍

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

The beauty of the accession states is the dilution of the power of the founding members.

Sadly, that doesn't really seem to to be the case.  It is still Germany pulling the strings - understandable in many ways as they also pay a very large share of the bills.

 

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

Reform takes place where the members push for change.

With the huge diversity in culture, aspirations, wealth, environment, living standards, language, and all the other factors, there are masses of small 'pushes' largely in diverse directions which the heavyweight commission easily resists.

 

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

The weakness of any UK government is the short term nature of its policies.

I don't disagree with that.

 

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

A global system requires long term strategy and following policies that the EU provides.

That might make some sense as a 'framework' - but only if they are the right policies - and they aren't.  The idea of ever closer union, EU armed forces, common currency goal pushed to completion, common foreign policy etc. is all about central 'control', not a broad strategy which individual countries can follow, or not as their own populations choose.  We were able to 'opt out' of things - notably the common currency.  Future joiners will have less ability to opt out.  IF we were ever in the central currency, it makes any prospect of withdrawal near enough impossible.  Thank god we never joined it.

Edited June 10, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[Raja Clavata]

And with the challenges the German economy is currently facing this increases the likelihood of reform being driven on the basis of self preservation, particularly with uncertainty over the future of UK membership and France not doing particularly well either?