oowee Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 10 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: While you're quoting Constitutional Convention could you possibly make the same point to John Bercow the Speaker! I thought he was supporting the commons to get their voice heard in the national interest. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: While you're quoting Constitutional Convention could you possibly make the same point to John Bercow the Speaker! For once we agree. The government governs on behalf of the Crown, not Parliament. There is no precedent at all that gives Parliament a right to demand publication of confidential advice given to the Executive, nor in my opinion should there be. That's the slippery slope to mob rule. Edited January 27, 2019 by Retsdon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 39 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Just on a point of constitutional convention, MPs are not simply delegates, or mouthpieces for their constituents. In a tradition that goes back to the 1700s they're elected as trustees whose chief loyalty is to the national interest. You can thank Edmund Burke, the Irish MP and political philosopher for that. "It is a tenet of representative democracy that MPs are not delegates for their constituents. This means that, while the views of constituents are frequently considered, the actions of MPs are governed by their determination of the best interests of their constituency, their party and the country as a whole." http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/mps-and-political-artiesp Dunno about constitutional convention But it seems nowadays self interest and party politics comes before the National Interest! In the case of the EU referendum the MP's (parliament) could not agree on what was in the best interests of their constituencies, their party or the country as a whole, so passed sovereign responsibility to the electorate to decide.......they did this via a UK wide referendum........the electorate decided Brexit!...once sovereignty was relinquished the MP's (Parliament) shouldn't try to overturn or renege on it just because we didn't vote the way they wanted us to!.....which is what the remainer MP's are trying to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 minute ago, panoma1 said: In the case of the EU referendum the MP's (parliament) could not agree on what was in the best interests of their constituencies, their party or the country as a whole, so passed sovereign responsibility to the electorate to decide... You can believe that if you want to. The reality is that Cameron called the referendum - firmly believing that the vote woud be remain - because he wanted to stick it to the Euro-sceptic wing of the Tory Party. He miscalculated badly and so here we are. Incidentally, I'm reading a very good book at the moment called All Out War by Tim Shipman. https://www.amazon.co.uk/All-Out-War-Britains-Political/dp/0008215170/ref=mp_s_a_1_1/261-1474300-7492136?ie=UTF8&qid=1548613950&sr=8-1&keywords=tim+shipman+all+out+war I highly recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Can someone explain to me please, how it is that the border between the north and south of Ireland is such an issue for the EU when the EU are quite happy with the soft border between Switzerland and other EU countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Retsdon said: You can believe that if you want to. The reality is that Cameron called the referendum - firmly believing that the vote woud be remain - because he wanted to stick it to the Euro-sceptic wing of the Tory Party. He miscalculated badly and so here we are. Incidentally, I'm reading a very good book at the moment called All Out War by Tim Shipman. https://www.amazon.co.uk/All-Out-War-Britains-Political/dp/0008215170/ref=mp_s_a_1_1/261-1474300-7492136?ie=UTF8&qid=1548613950&sr=8-1&keywords=tim+shipman+all+out+war I highly recommend it. And you can believe your account of the reasoning behind the decision if you want to, but unless your telepathic you can't know what Cameron's reasons were for offering a referendum, only he knows!...........you can only speculate!.....but I agree, for a remainer it appears it was a monumental miscalculation by him. Did not parliament vote to hold a referendum in order to allow the electorate to decide? Why would they do that if the could agree a position? They could have made a decision, as you pointed out, constitutional convention allows them to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, mudpatten said: Can someone explain to me please, how it is that the border between the north and south of Ireland is such an issue for the EU when the EU are quite happy with the soft border between Switzerland and other EU countries. Very good point. But we have to be made an example of.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, mudpatten said: Can someone explain to me please, how it is that the border between the north and south of Ireland is such an issue for the EU when the EU are quite happy with the soft border between Switzerland and other EU countries. There is no need. In fact now - Eire and the UK (Northern Ireland) have many differences in duty (alcohol, tobacco (higher in Eire) and fuels (cheaper in Eire - especially diesel)) as well as taxation and VAT (which has 3 rates in Eire, the top being 23%). In fact many EU countries have different taxes and duties - something they conveniently overlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 I believe the Irish backstop was always going to be unacceptable to the UK, and it was included for that reason, it will make any "deal" impossible, a "no deal" exit is not acceptable to many MP's..........so what is left.......remaining in the EU? I suspect the Irish backstop to prevent a border between the Republic and the North is a "Trojan horse" manufactured by the EU and UK to stop Brexit...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 58 minutes ago, Retsdon said: You can believe that if you want to. The reality is that Cameron called the referendum - firmly believing that the vote woud be remain - because he wanted to stick it to the Euro-sceptic wing of the Tory Party. He miscalculated badly and so here we are. Incidentally, I'm reading a very good book at the moment called All Out War by Tim Shipman. https://www.amazon.co.uk/All-Out-War-Britains-Political/dp/0008215170/ref=mp_s_a_1_1/261-1474300-7492136?ie=UTF8&qid=1548613950&sr=8-1&keywords=tim+shipman+all+out+war I highly recommend it. The point is, a referendum was held and the result must be upheld or it exposes the political system in this country as being totally un democratic. Put it this way, if those in power won't accept the decision of that vote, why should anyone accept the result of any other vote, rioters could claim they are going to overthrow the government because everyone voted the wrong way at the last election and didn't know what they voted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 48 minutes ago, mudpatten said: Can someone explain to me please, how it is that the border between the north and south of Ireland is such an issue for the EU when the EU are quite happy with the soft border between Switzerland and other EU countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 (edited) ^^^^^^ this following rules of origin, anti duping,different trade and regulatory regime results in this ^^^^^^ Easily avoided by common rule book and standards alignment. ? In joining Schengen, Switzerland has now adopted some of the EU's most contentious policies, including the free movement of labour, the relaxation of border controls, and the Dublin agreement on asylum. Edited January 27, 2019 by oowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 6 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: I did commend him when he resigned from Northern Ireland Minister in protest over TM's agreement. Brill ! 5 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: My MP is a Tory and has supported Mrs May's 'deal' - which is supporting leave - so I guess she could be said to be supporting the referendum result. I have therefore not pestered. But sometimes a bit of encouragement goes a long way............. 5 hours ago, hambone said: My MP is Stephen Kinnock...….Not an honourable man 😂 Like his father, a total hypocrite! Spent his Labour career as anti-EU, then went off to Brussels, stuck his nose in the trough, and came away several million pounds richer, and a Remoaner! Family of hypocrites! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 4 hours ago, panoma1 said: Richard Burden blinkered ("I always vote against hunting, and always will") anti fieldsports.........a remainer, and a people's vote supporter......even though his constituency voted 60/40 to leave... another one to target then! Only needs about 30 new members of the local Tory Party, to turn up to a meeting, and pass a vote to de-select him! 4 hours ago, Rewulf said: Nottingham north, Graham Allen , remainer, and voted to NOT trigger article 50, retired at 2017 election and it's now Alex Norris, staunch remainer, votes against anything that bring Brexit closer. Nottingham north voted 64 % to leave the the EU Time you and family and friends quietly joined your local Tory association...............and de-selected him! 4 hours ago, oowee said: Bath and North East Somerest, JRM 58% remain to 42% quit. Moggy has betrayed and rejected his constituents. No, Mogg has followed the result of the referendum.............the others have not! 3 hours ago, panoma1 said: Nope! He supports the democratic UK majority decision.......If MPs were to support their remain constituency, Scotland and London amongst other losers would remain in the EU....whilst the winners, those that vote leave would be out! His constituency merely Contributed to the democratic decision, they did not make the democratic decision! Correct, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Retsdon said: Just on a point of constitutional convention, MPs are not simply delegates, or mouthpieces for their constituents. In a tradition that goes back to the 1700s they're elected as trustees whose chief loyalty is to the national interest. You can thank Edmund Burke, the Irish MP and political philosopher for that. "It is a tenet of representative democracy that MPs are not delegates for their constituents. This means that, while the views of constituents are frequently considered, the actions of MPs are governed by their determination of the best interests of their constituency, their party and the country as a whole." http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/mps-and-political-artiesp Well, he was Irish.........and it was 300 years ago! 2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: While you're quoting Constitutional Convention could you possibly make the same point to John Bercow the Speaker! Excellent ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, pinfireman said: another one to target then! Only needs about 30 new members of the local Tory Party, to turn up to a meeting, and pass a vote to de-select him! Difficult for the local Tories to deselect him...……..he's Labour! 😇 Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, oowee said: I thought he was supporting the commons to get their voice heard in the national interest. 👍 But you would, wouldn,t you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 minute ago, pinfireman said: Well, he was Irish.........and it was 300 years ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Retsdon said: For once we agree. The government governs on behalf of the Crown, not Parliament. There is no precedent at all that gives Parliament a right to demand publication of confidential advice given to the Executive, nor in my opinion should there be. That's the slippery slope to mob rule. Correct! 1 hour ago, Retsdon said: You can believe that if you want to. The reality is that Cameron called the referendum - firmly believing that the vote woud be remain - because he wanted to stick it to the Euro-sceptic wing of the Tory Party. He miscalculated badly and so here we are. Incidentally, I'm reading a very good book at the moment called All Out War by Tim Shipman. https://www.amazon.co.uk/All-Out-War-Britains-Political/dp/0008215170/ref=mp_s_a_1_1/261-1474300-7492136?ie=UTF8&qid=1548613950&sr=8-1&keywords=tim+shipman+all+out+war I highly recommend it. I think that Cameron,s intention was to destroy the fast growing UKIP vote, not the euro-sceptic wing of his party, which had not significantly grown over 20 years! 1 hour ago, ShootingEgg said: Very good point. But we have to be made an example of.. True! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: I believe the Irish backstop was always going to be unacceptable to the UK, and it was included for that reason, it will make any "deal" impossible, a "no deal" exit is not acceptable to many MP's..........so what is left.......remaining in the EU? I suspect the Irish backstop to prevent a border between the Republic and the North is a "Trojan horse" manufactured by the EU and UK to stop Brexit...... I agree with most of that. But if it suited the UK government and they were not relying on DUP support i have no doubt they would do what thought they needed to, even if that meant a Irish backstop. Why did she agree to it in the first place knowing it would not get support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, pinfireman said: But you would, wouldn,t you? .yep you guessed. 😊 4 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Difficult for the local Tories to deselect him...……..he's Labour! 😇 Lol! Brilliant 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: I believe the Irish backstop was always going to be unacceptable to the UK, and it was included for that reason, it will make any "deal" impossible, a "no deal" exit is not acceptable to many MP's..........so what is left.......remaining in the EU? I suspect the Irish backstop to prevent a border between the Republic and the North is a "Trojan horse" manufactured by the EU and UK to stop Brexit...... I have no doubt that you are right............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: I believe the Irish backstop was always going to be unacceptable to the UK, and it was included for that reason, it will make any "deal" impossible, a "no deal" exit is not acceptable to many MP's..........so what is left.......remaining in the EU? I suspect the Irish backstop to prevent a border between the Republic and the North is a "Trojan horse" manufactured by the EU and UK to stop Brexit...... The border issue was pointed out to the electorate during the referendum. The 52% voted for a border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Difficult for the local Tories to deselect him...……..he's Labour! 😇 Lol! My apologies, I meant join Labour.............it should not be difficult, they have let half of the village idiots in England join! 8 minutes ago, oowee said: .yep you guessed. 😊 Brilliant 😂 I was still on bashing Tory Remoaner MPs....a genuine slip! But it still applies, join the local party, and destroy from within. It worked for Momentum! 6 minutes ago, oowee said: The border issue was pointed out to the electorate during the referendum. The 52% voted for a border. It was NEVER clearly pointed out nationally! And even if it had been, we would still have voted Leave! Edited January 27, 2019 by pinfireman spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts