Brexit - merged threads

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Newbie to this said:

OK, I'll rephrase.

Where will the democracy of those who voted leave and haven't changed their minds be???

In tatters I would imagine, but what is your point, surely this is obvious?

[Newbie to this]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

In tatters I would imagine, but what is your point, surely this is obvious?

Exactly. So I come back to my original statement that anyone calling for a second vote is an anti-democrat. 

And a second vote is undemocratic.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Newbie to this

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Our rights for workers are already better than the EU's. What makes you think any government would abandon them? It would be political suicide for any party that suggested it.

Our rights are part of our EU membership. Leave and you can set what you like. Think it will get better? 

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Are you suggesting they didn't know what leave meant?  If so - Cameron, Osborne etc seemed to understand well enough such that all of the dire consequences that they predicted in Project Fear could be identified and defined in positively frightening detail.

If it wasn't clear to ordinary MPs, - why did they stand on that ticket at the subsequent General Election?  It comes back to claiming ignorance of the rules after you have been caught.  Ignorance is no defence in the law.

OK, so some didn't fully understand.  But with 559 - surely at least enough to get the 326 needed for a majority cannot have been so ignorant?  They have teams of researchers.

Leave is everything from here to there and then back again. Many types of leave as we have seen. Which one did we vote for? Get a deal and confirm it and then there is full agreement over the course set. People can decide to buy into the misery or the opportunity as they see fit.

 

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

Exactly. So I come back to my original statement that anyone calling for a second vote is an anti-democrat. 

And a second vote is undemocratic.

Not at all. The country voted leave. That gets fleshed out as a detailed proposition including the implications and people make an informed choice. 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Newbie to this said:

Exactly. So I come back to my original statement that anyone calling for a second vote is an anti-democrat. 

I don't agree with that for the reasons I put forward earlier.

What percentage of the UK public would be left feeling that way?

[ditchman]

i think anyone who wants to be Prime Minister should be BANNED..........

we ought to have prime ministers like the choosing of the Dahli Llama.................chosen from the gutter and trained to be world wisely........and newtered

dont want anymore of these "knee trembler incidents" like john major and the egg woman thingy........

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Leave is everything from here to there and then back again. Many types of leave as we have seen. Which one did we vote for? Get a deal and confirm it and then there is full agreement over the course set.

As it happens I voted remain in the referendum - but never a bad looser 😉 I now support remain - because that was the outcome. 

But those who voted leave voted for what Cameron made very clear - it was leaving the EU, and that meant both the Customs Union - and Single Market.  The consequences were going to lead to Project Fear IF no deals could be done.  No deals were defined at that stage - We were told LEAVE MEANT LEAVE - those exact words I think were used.  Article 50 was duly passed with an end date on which we would definitely leave deal or no deal on 29 March 2017.

At the subsequent election (June 2017), where May, David Davis & co were trying to get a 'deal' I voted for an MP (Tory as it happens) who stood on a Tory manifesto which included leaving.  At that time it was made very clear that a deal was being worked on - but that "no deal was better than a bad deal".  Make no mistake, we will be leaving the EU deal or no deal on 29th March 2019 as per Article 50 was understood when we voted in that election.  As I have said the Torys remained in government, but Labour picked up seats standing on a leave ticket.

Both Labour and Tory parties had voted on Article 50 - it set the end date deal or no deal.

Both Labour and Tory parties had leaving the EU committed as per article 50 in their manifestos.  559 seats were won on that promise.  What is not clear?

And yet they cannot now get a simple majority 326 to leave as per Article 50 - which they signed up to and were voted into office on from 559 MPs. 

 

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

Leave is everything from here to there and then back again. Many types of leave as we have seen. Which one did we vote for? Get a deal and confirm it and then there is full agreement over the course set. People can decide to buy into the misery or the opportunity as they see fit.

Hang on a minute..

At what point did the public have any say in the 'deal' ?
Its all very well parliament not being happy with 'Mays' deal , for a multitude of reasons, when was the public ever going to be asked if it was ok ?

You can say there were many types of Brexit if you like , but there was only ever WTO or Mays deal, if parliament had voted it through, we would have left 29/3 and be in the lovely transition period now, £39 bn poorer.
So please dont give me the peoples choice thing on what Brexit we wanted, because we never got one.
The only choice we had was leave or remain, we chose leave, as you know.

Trying to deconstruct that decision, and attempt to reverse the choice, is the worst kind of corrupt , undemocratic action, worthy of a central American banana republic.

On the flip side for remain, when was the UK public ever asked about Maastrict or Lisbon treaties and ever closer union, Oh yeah, we had a vote 45 years ago , sorry !
Funny how we need to keep going back to the public NOW ...

I really dont understand how you can think this is  ok.
 

[oowee]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

As it happens I voted remain in the referendum - but never a bad looser 😉 I now support remain - because that was the outcome. 

But those who voted leave voted for what Cameron made very clear - it was leaving the EU, and that meant both the Customs Union - and Single Market.  The consequences were going to lead to Project Fear IF no deals could be done.  No deals were defined at that stage - We were told LEAVE MEANT LEAVE - those exact words I think were used.  Article 50 was duly passed with an end date on which we would definitely leave deal or no deal on 29 March 2017.

At the subsequent election (June 2017), where May, David Davis & co were trying to get a 'deal' I voted for an MP (Tory as it happens) who stood on a Tory manifesto which included leaving.  At that time it was made very clear that a deal was being worked on - but that "no deal was better than a bad deal".  Make no mistake, we will be leaving the EU deal or no deal on 29th March 2019 as per Article 50 was understood when we voted in that election.  As I have said the Torys remained in government, but Labour picked up seats standing on a leave ticket.

Both Labour and Tory parties had voted on Article 50 - it set the end date deal or no deal.

Both Labour and Tory parties had leaving the EU committed as per article 50 in their manifestos.  559 seats were won on that promise.  What is not clear?

And yet they cannot now get a simple majority 326 to leave as per Article 50 - which they signed up to and were voted into office on from 559 MPs. 

 

Did we vote for a hard border? What type of trade deal did we vote for? What workers rights did we propose? What arrangements did we make for our citizens abroad? 

 

Just now, Rewulf said:

Hang on a minute..

At what point did the public have any say in the 'deal' ?
Its all very well parliament not being happy with 'Mays' deal , for a multitude of reasons, when was the public ever going to be asked if it was ok ?

You can say there were many types of Brexit if you like , but there was only ever WTO or Mays deal, if parliament had voted it through, we would have left 29/3 and be in the lovely transition period now, £39 bn poorer.
So please dont give me the peoples choice thing on what Brexit we wanted, because we never got one.
The only choice we had was leave or remain, we chose leave, as you know.

Trying to deconstruct that decision, and attempt to reverse the choice, is the worst kind of corrupt , undemocratic action, worthy of a central American banana republic.

On the flip side for remain, when was the UK public ever asked about Maastrict or Lisbon treaties and ever closer union, Oh yeah, we had a vote 45 years ago , sorry !
Funny how we need to keep going back to the public NOW ...

I really dont understand how you can think this is  ok.
 

Because leave has a variety of options and the people of the country should make the decision on what is on offer rather than on what is not.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Did we vote for a hard border? What type of trade deal did we vote for? What workers rights did we propose? What arrangements did we make for our citizens abroad?

We voted to leave.  It was made clear that meant both the Customs Union - and Single Market.  Therefore I would expect a hard border.  Just as we have with non EU countries.

I would also expect trade deals to be negotiated after leaving, but WTO is the starting point.  Just as we have with non EU countries.  Again - leaving the single market and customs union implied that. 

It was (I think) made clear that there would be no immediate change in 'workers rights', but we would take back control and that would be altered by Parliament if and when they saw fit - in other words like any other UK laws.

As for our citizens abroad, there is a large department called the Foreign Office to look after their interests - just as they do in non EU countries.

REMEMBER - the so called "deal" is only a transition period deal to December 2020 (assuming the 'backstop' wasn't invoked) anyway and we still have trade deals to negotiate to follow that anyway.  We have been denied any opportunity to start those negotiation by the ever co-operative EU - until we pay a £39 billion "Bribe"?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

But John, us PLEBS didn't know what we were voting for, remember?

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But John, us PLEBS didn't know what we were voting for, remember?

I'm not a PLEB though as I actually voted remain 🤣

I may not be a PLEB, but I am a democrat (though I'm no longer quite sure what that means as it doesn't seem to mean quite what I thought it did). 

Bit like the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.  Only one box on the ballot paper.  At least they are honest about it!

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

Because leave has a variety of options and the people of the country should make the decision on what is on offer rather than on what is not.

Why now , when it was deemed perfectly OK for MPs to vote down Mays deal, and attempt to remove no deal off the table ?
Where was public input then ?

Now theyve got nothing left, its lets put it back to the people , make sure remain and at least 2 other options are on the ballot, so we can make sure we get the right result this time.

Can you not see the hypocrisy here ?

 

[Newbie to this]

29 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I don't agree with that for the reasons I put forward earlier.

What percentage of the UK public would be left feeling that way?

Yes, we have already established that you don't agree with democracy. Unless of course it aligns with your views.

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

Our rights are part of our EU membership. Leave and you can set what you like. Think it will get better? 

There are many in the UK parliament that would disagree with you on this point. And one member has already pointed this out in parliament.

 

35 minutes ago, oowee said:

Not at all. The country voted leave. That gets fleshed out as a detailed proposition including the implications and people make an informed choice. 

And anything other than leaving, wouldn't be what was voted for. And therefore undemocratic.

I'm more than willing to have another democratic referendum in 40 odd years time when all the benefits of leaving have been realised, or to put it another way when all of the scaremongering around us leaving has disappeared into oblivion.

We apparently have already had an FTA offered but our remainer PM turned it down. 

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Why now , when it was deemed perfectly OK for MPs to vote down Mays deal, and attempt to remove no deal off the table ?
Where was public input then ?

Now theyve got nothing left, its lets put it back to the people , make sure remain and at least 2 other options are on the ballot, so we can make sure we get the right result this time.

Can you not see the hypocrisy here ?

 

So lets get a proposition and put it to the people. 

 

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

We voted to leave.  It was made clear that meant both the Customs Union - and Single Market.  Therefore I would expect a hard border.  Just as we have with non EU countries.

I would also expect trade deals to be negotiated after leaving, but WTO is the starting point.  Just as we have with non EU countries.  Again - leaving the single market and customs union implied that. 

It was (I think) made clear that there would be no immediate change in 'workers rights', but we would take back control and that would be altered by Parliament if and when they saw fit - in other words like any other UK laws.

As for our citizens abroad, there is a large department called the Foreign Office to look after their interests - just as they do in non EU countries.

REMEMBER - the so called "deal" is only a transition period deal to December 2020 (assuming the 'backstop' wasn't invoked) anyway and we still have trade deals to negotiate to follow that anyway.  We have been denied any opportunity to start those negotiation by the ever co-operative EU - until we pay a £39 billion "Bribe"?

But we were told it would be easy. Where is the easy deal? 

 

2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Yes, we have already established that you don't agree with democracy. Unless of course it aligns with your views.

There are many in the UK parliament that would disagree with you on this point. And one member has already pointed this out in parliament.

 

And anything other than leaving, wouldn't be what was voted for. And therefore undemocratic.

I'm more than willing to have another democratic referendum in 40 odd years time when all the benefits of leaving have been realised, or to put it another way when all of the scaremongering around us leaving has disappeared into oblivion.

We apparently have already had an FTA offered but our remainer PM turned it down. 

So lets see what this leave deal is and put it to the people. Lets be sure thats what people want as the description of leave varied depending on who you asked.

[mick miller]

52 minutes ago, oowee said:

Our rights are part of our EU membership. Leave and you can set what you like. Think it will get better? 

No, our rights are better than the EU's basic rights We take their baseline and improve (gold plate) them. Why would that change?

Edited May 28, 2019 by mick miller

[oowee]

1 minute ago, mick miller said:

No, our rights are better than the EU's basic rights. We take their baseline and improve (gold plate) them. Why would that change?

Working time directive? 

[Newbie to this]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Lets be sure thats what people want as the description of leave varied depending on who you asked.

So you keep saying, but it simply isn't true.

Cameron the then leader of our government and plenty of others pointed out exactly what voting leave meant.

Out of the single market.

Out of the customs union.

End of freedom of movement.

No longer under the jurisdiction of the EU courts.

No more large sums of money going to the EU.

Anything that doesn't deliver on these is not what was voted for.

He also stated that this was our decision, and it would be honoured, there will be no going back to renegotiate our membership and there will be no second vote.

[henry d]

16 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But John, us PLEBS didn't know what we were voting for, remember?

Well if you knew it would turn out like this then you should have put a few quid on how it would turn out, I`m sure the bookies would have given you good odds.

**In a Ladbrokes somewhere in middle England**....."You want to bet on brexit going pearshaped rather than Theresa giving those dastardly europeans an ultimatum which they will bow down to. Sure thing 2000/1 sir, how much do you want to put on it?"

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

So you keep saying, but it simply isn't true.

Cameron the then leader of our government and plenty of others pointed out exactly what voting leave meant.

Out of the single market.

Out of the customs union.

End of freedom of movement.

No longer under the jurisdiction of the EU courts.

No more large sums of money going to the EU.

Anything that doesn't deliver on these is not what was voted for.

He also stated that this was our decision, and it would be honoured, there will be no going back to renegotiate our membership and there will be no second vote.

Trade agreement? Workers rights. Border control. Where was that? 

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, henry d said:

Well if you knew it would turn out like this then you should have put a few quid on how it would turn out, I`m sure the bookies would have given you good odds.

**In a Ladbrokes somewhere in middle England**....."You want to bet on brexit going pearshaped rather than Theresa giving those dastardly europeans an ultimatum which they will bow down to. Sure thing 2000/1 sir, how much do you want to put on it?"

Are you missing the bit where we were, according to Steve Baker, offered a FTA deal that May turned down.

There is a link a few pages back

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

But we were told it would be easy. Where is the easy deal?

We were told all sorts of things.  Some good - some bad.  Remember - if a politicians lips are moving - (s)he's lying.

Osborne told us we would have to have an emergency budget almost at once.  To raise taxation.

Carney told us we would go into recession and loads of city jobs would go.

The Union's told us there would widespread job losses

Obama said we would be at the back of the queue for a USA trade deal

Someone said Minis would stop being produced.

Others said widespread food shortages

Someone even mentioned it might start WW3 if I remember rightly.

The truth is that life has gone on - a few ups and downs, but the sun still comes up, it still rains, and MPs still get little done and claim loads of expenses and there are no more food shortages than before.

No deal will have impacts - I don't think anyone denies that, but trade deals don't (shouldn't anyway) take forever if both parties want them - and much of the world trades on WTO anyway - and they get by.

[mick miller]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Working time directive? 

No, Google the 1938 Holidays with Pay Act, as with many of the EU bogeymen that remainers love to trot out as evidence of how we'll all go to hell in a handbasket, in many ways we were way ahead of the Europeans in this regard BEFORE we even joined. Since joining we've taken their minimums and improved them, it's what the British often do.

It's a bit like the other old perennial 'no one trades on WTO' - go and check that too. It's bull****. Out of the 135 countries that trade currently with the EU, 77 do so under WTO.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Working time directive? 

These things can be changed (for better or worse) by our own Parliament - as we elect them - NOT by the distant EU Commission.

[oowee]

So lets see what those implications are so that we can agree that's what we want. 

We can trade on WTO with the rest of the world (or at least that part outside of our wide ranging trade agreements that we negotiated with the EU now. We do not want to get by. We want to prosper. 

[Newbie to this]

Just now, oowee said:

Trade agreement? Workers rights. Border control. Where was that? 

FTA deal offered.

Workers rights are covered by the UK parliament.

Border controls? We've had a free border for people with Ireland since way before the EU and if May accepted the FTA no further border controls are necessary.