Newbie to this Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If you look at our economy and GDP the majority of us should be doing better than we are but that isn't a failing of the EU it's a failing of our government, society and culture. As I have said before if and when we get out of the EU to whom do we point the finger at when things don't go as well as they should / we were promised they would? I've answered this before, our Government and Parliament. Who we can get rid of at the next election, if we so choose. 14 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Dunno, do you? No, but I can have a good guess and already have in other posts. They, like our remainer parliament are holding on to some deluded hope that somehow this will all just disappear and things will just carry on with our further integration in the EU empire. Remaining is not the answer, it's full of uncertainty, maybe not for trade, but politically. Will we be forced to join the Euro, will we be forced into a single taxation policy, will the EU take us to war to further their goals, will they keep on expanding, will our contributions go up to pay for said expansion, will our contributions go up regardless, will our veto disappear. The list of uncertainty is endless and we as the people of the UK will have no say on any of it and even if we do, will the result be honoured if it doesn't go the correct way! Edited October 10, 2019 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I dont agree, most EUropean economies arent doing any good either, have they all got rubbish governments, or is the common denominator they are all EU members ? The second part is simple , we point the finger of blame at our OWN government and deal with them accordingly. Something a bit harder to do with the EU , no ? Sorry if I wasn't clear but I'm saying our economy isn't too shabby but it's citizens don't benefit from it as much as they should. I don't see how that can be blamed on the EU. I really fail to see how the EU is holding down the normal man in the street in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 10 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: I've answered this before, our Government and Parliament. Who we can get rid of at the next election, if we so choose. No, but I can have a good guess and already have in other posts. They, like our remainer parliament are holding on to some deluded hope that somehow this will all just disappear and things will just carry on with our further integration in the EU empire. Remaining is not the answer, it's full of uncertainty, maybe not for trade, but politically. Will we be forced to join the Euro, will we be forced into a single taxation policy, will the EU take us to war to further their goals, will they keep on expanding, will our contributions go up to pay for said expansion, will our contributions go up regardless, will our veto disappear. The list of uncertainty is endless and we as the people of the UK will have no say on any of it and even if we do, will the result be honoured if it doesn't go the correct way! We don't have to be forced to do anything, if they tried to force the € on us then I agree this is grounds for leaving but at this stage you are speculating. Since none of us can see into the future there is uncertainty on both sides - don't see how it's a relevant point for or against Brexit. 17 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: I think London was singled out because it is very much the capital of 'Remain'. I have lived in Birmingham - no better/no worse than London in most respects overall - but London is badly worse in some areas; Grossly overpriced housing Grossly overpriced in other areas Dreadful commuting (poor public transport, overcrowding and expensive). Impossibly expensive to get about in a normal 'country type' car (low emissions zones taxes, congestion taxes) Many people I know who have to live in London (for work reasons) do so reluctantly - and if they are wealthy enough - keep a country property as well to escape at weekends. A lot have left when the opportunity arrived (despite taking a salary cut) simply because they loathed the dump it has become. Yes it has some of the worlds best museums and some great tourist traps - but most of them are now so overcrowded you have to queue for hours to visit (things like the Cabinet War Rooms etc.) I used to like the occasional visit to London (and have relatives there), but I loathe going now and they have their weekend country retreat - and I visit them there now instead. You don't have to look too hard in London to find areas that are beautiful and charming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: I am - but London has different views on many things - and a great many people in London are not UK voters. Most of the UK would actually prefer London wasn't even there. Just look at the state it is in - streets blocked off by feral protesters, mayor who tacitly supports them, police powerless. It has become a dump frankly. I am lost for words. Think yourself very, very lucky the UK has London. 13 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: So why is the FTA that was offered, not being offered again? Why are they clinging on to Their/May's dead treaty? We can take a Canada deal any day of the week but Parliament has said we don't want it. It would have tariff for agri goods, rules of origin based on EU rules, costly customs checks for some and only limited service liberalisation. Still subject to EU regs with no vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: We don't have to be forced to do anything, if they tried to force the € on us then I agree this is grounds for leaving but at this stage you are speculating. Since none of us can see into the future there is uncertainty on both sides - don't see how it's a relevant point for or against Brexit. so it's ok when remainers speculate, but when speculating about what remaining might entail is not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 Whilst not aimed at anyone in particular and certainly not JohnfromUK, comments about the state of London remind me of a meme I saw lately along the lines of: "I live in London, population 9M, the most diverse city on the planet. My neighbours come from all backgrounds, cultures and religions. I do enjoy the rampant irony of being accused of living in a bubble by some webbed wonder from Crapbury on the wherever; population 60; surnames 4". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 10 minutes ago, oowee said: We can take a Canada deal any day of the week but Parliament has said we don't want it. It would have tariff for agri goods, rules of origin based on EU rules, costly customs checks for some and only limited service liberalisation. Still subject to EU regs with no vote. 19 hours ago, Newbie to this said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: so it's ok when remainers speculate, but when speculating about what remaining might entail is not! That's not what I said. From your username I took it to be that you were a newbie to shooting not debate, logic and rhetoric 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, oowee said: Think yourself very, very lucky the UK has London. Care to elaborate ? 9 minutes ago, oowee said: We can take a Canada deal any day of the week but Parliament has said we don't want it. It would have tariff for agri goods, rules of origin based on EU rules, costly customs checks for some and only limited service liberalisation. Still subject to EU regs with no vote. Parliament dont want Brexit full stop ! Which is better the May deal or Canada ? You are totally missing the point, all these deals and manoeuvres are just side shows to what remainers really want = remain. They do not accept the result. 3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Whilst not aimed at anyone in particular and certainly not JohnfromUK, comments about the state of London remind me of a meme I saw lately along the lines of: "I live in London, population 9M, the most diverse city on the planet. My neighbours come from all backgrounds, cultures and religions. I do enjoy the rampant irony of being accused of living in a bubble by some webbed wonder from Crapbury on the wherever; population 60; surnames 4". I enjoy the 'rampant irony' of someone accusing some one of xenophobia whilst calling into question their genetic and hereditary background , quite priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: That's not what I said. From your username I took it to be that you were a newbie to shooting not debate, logic and rhetoric 🤣 It's how it read. My speculation isn't relevant to brexit, but all of the project fear speculation (I believe you have quoted some before) are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, oowee said: I am lost for words. That's unusual 🤣 14 minutes ago, oowee said: Think yourself very, very lucky the UK has London. There are parts - i.e. the CITY (as in the square mile and more recent offshoots), it has some of the 'best' shops (like Purdeys, H&H etc. for us shooters) though now largely selling stuff made elsewhere, and it is a wonderful tourist attraction, has the finest museums, public buildings etc. But ultimately the vast majority of it by area (say inside the M25) is an overpriced DUMP - for reasons given in a previous post - and it's getting worse. 8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Whilst not aimed at anyone in particular and certainly not JohnfromUK No offence taken! There is some truth in what you say - but London isn't the UK; it has grown apart from the UK; Londoners now hold different views to many 'non Londoners'. Much of the 'better parts' of London are largely non residential, or owned by ultra wealthy who have homes in other parts (and often other countries). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 17 hours ago, oowee said: Ironic that the EU appears more concerned for the social and economic impact of Brexit on the people of Europe (including the UK) than the UK Government for it's own people. Are you seriously suggesting the EU cares for the people of Europe? They're politicians, and as such I think anyone would have to be fairly naive to believe they had our best interests at heart. Politicians have engineered a cosy little club for themselves that is the EU; it matters not whether you're a successful or failed politician, there is room for all in the club which is the EU, so long as what you do is in the best interest of that club. The EU isn't interested in democracy or anything else which interferes with that club; all it cares about is that club. Europe and the rest of the world would and could function without the EU, I doubt the same could be said for many of the individual EU club members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I enjoy the 'rampant irony' of someone accusing some one of xenophobia whilst calling into question their genetic and hereditary background , quite priceless Indeed. Was a somewhat a tongue in check post, glad it made you larf. This thread abounds in rampant irony 👍 That said, I don't think the accusation of xenophobia was intended but you do seem rather hung up on that point 😛 Edited October 10, 2019 by Raja Clavata extra line break removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 I Think the answer to the irish question,,,,is.. Don't dealwith Southern ireland at all.. They will squeal like a stuck pig and jump at the trough in very short order,simple really,nothing going in either direction. they willt hink again and stop being a puppet of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 42 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: No offence taken! There is some truth in what you say - but London isn't the UK; it has grown apart from the UK; Londoners now hold different views to many 'non Londoners'. Much of the 'better parts' of London are largely non residential, or owned by ultra wealthy who have homes in other parts (and often other countries). Thanks John. I largely agree. 44 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: But ultimately the vast majority of it by area (say inside the M25) is an overpriced DUMP - for reasons given in a previous post - and it's getting worse. Hang on, I missed this bit 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: .....we have the government EU primarily driven by self preservation with support from some very wealthy elites who are undoubtedly trying to overturn the UK's democratic vote and who will benefit from Brexit remaining. It doesn't take much to apply your argument to the opposite of what you claim. The thing with leaving with a deal is that due to the desperation of those who expected us to vote the way they wanted, is that it has become remaining with a deal. That, like it or not, isn't leaving. We weren't given ( in the referendum ) the option to vote to leave with a deal anymore than we were given the option to remain with a deal. Subsequently, the only 'deal' those who oppose us leaving will accept, is one which keeps us tied to the EU, and it is these ties which those of us who won the vote and want to leave have been campaigning against for as long as we have. Let's leave and then we can get on negotiating ( if that's what we want ) a trade only deal with anyone who wants to trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Scully said: It doesn't take much to apply your argument to the opposite of what you claim. Agreed like most of the arguments from each side. Let's leave and then we can get on negotiating ( if that's what we want ) a trade only deal with anyone who wants to trade. To prove your above point: Let's stay, forget the whole thing and get on with fixing our home grown issues and grow the volume of trade under existing arrangements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: 3.5 years later and the Cons are still trying to neutralise the Brexit Party, the referendum happened because of this threat and the Cons leadership appear ready to take us out on no deal for the same reasons. Yes, the Cons leadership know that if they don't deliver what the majority voted for, they are finished.......they're politicians for crying out loud! It's survival! This is exactly why I found Owees post about the 'caring EU' so incredible! Do you honestly believe that Corbyn wants a socialist or communist state for the good of the people? He wants to scratch that personal itch that is the chip of resentment and overwhelming hatred, envy and jealousy on his shoulders for the ruling classes and aristocracy scratched, which has been eating away at him for his entire life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GirlfromtheNordcountry Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 I am puzzled by this thread. What on Earth happened to your democracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Scully said: Do you honestly believe that Corbyn wants a socialist or communist state for the good of the people? He wants to scratch that personal itch that is the chip of resentment and overwhelming hatred, envy and jealousy on his shoulders for the ruling classes and aristocracy scratched, which has been eating away at him for his entire life. Exactly. 2 minutes ago, GirlfromtheNordcountry said: What on Earth happened to your democracy? Our elected representatives (the MPs in Parliament) are refusing to honour a referendum result - a referendum that they collectively agreed to hold by a large majority, and of which they 'promised' to honour the result. In a subsequent General Election BOTH main parties promised to carry through the referendum result. One party has sort of tried (in initially a very half hearted way) and the other party has now changed its mind and wants to remain (as far as we can tell from their vague statements). The 'third' (the one which calls itself 'liberal democrat' party - has declaed it will ignore the democratic result of the referendum. Despite setting a date to leave (29th March 2019) - or elected representatives have refused to honour that commitment (which was again passed by a large majority). In summary - that in a nutshell - is what has happened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 30 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: That said, I don't think the accusation of xenophobia was intended but you do seem rather hung up on that point 😛 Not so much these days, but in the early days of Brexit, I got called a racist and xenophobe on various media, EVERY DAY . They didnt know if I was , they didnt know my creed , colour, race or religion, but they knew I was a leaver , so I was a scumbag nazi racist. Delve back into early Brexit threads on here, for some of the more tame stuff. 15 minutes ago, Scully said: Do you honestly believe that Corbyn wants a socialist or communist state for the good of the people? He wants to scratch that personal itch that is the chip of resentment and overwhelming hatred, envy and jealousy on his shoulders for the ruling classes and aristocracy scratched, which has been eating away at him for his entire life. Oh yeah ! 13 minutes ago, GirlfromtheNordcountry said: I am puzzled by this thread. What on Earth happened to your democracy? We are in the process of restoring it, some dont like the idea of the people deciding their own path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: To prove your above point: Let's stay, forget the whole thing and get on with fixing our home grown issues and grow the volume of trade under existing arrangements. Because we voted to leave. What you suggest above would mean us being where we currently are, a member 'state' ( not a country ) of an undemocratic and corrupt regime, totally unaccountable to the people over whom it holds sway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: Care to elaborate ? London. Where UK profits comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 Just now, oowee said: London. Where UK profits comes from. What ALL of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) Any chance of any remoaner saying what compromises they would make in order to get a deal? Staying in the EU is not compromising - for the hard of thinking. Edited October 10, 2019 by Gordon R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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