Rewulf Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: 👍 he is the PM of up to 160k tories, NOT the Countries choice You dont know that do you, and the opposition wont let us find out .? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: he is the PM of up to 160k tories, NOT the Countries choice I'm no Johnson fan, but he is the leader (as chosen by the Tory party members) of the governing party - and since the whole country chose that party to govern, he is therefore the PM. Simple - and as usually happens. Party chooses it's leader, Country chooses which party (by electing MPs from a party) governs. Johnson was voted for by 66% Tory party members. To put in in perspective, Corbyn had 59.5% of Labour votes when he was elected. At the last election, the Tory vote was about 13.6M. So if we assume 66% of those Tory voters (as opposed to members) voted for him, about say 8M "voter votes" for him. More than any other party leader. Current opinion polls show his as well out in front compared to any of the other options. Even in the Grauniad https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/06/poll-shows-conservative-party-15-points-ahead-of-labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 24 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: 👍 he is the PM of up to 160k tories, NOT the Countries choice So how do you propose to change that situation seeing as it is the way it has always been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 5 hours ago, Aled said: My daughter has a similar problem, here in West Wales she can't join in a conversation in her native language as many of the children she goes to school with only speak English.... (ps Sorry Scully I just couldn't resist it...) No problem, as long as you believe her interests are best served by only being able to speak Welsh. 😉 I've often bemoaned the fact that I feel isolated and that I'm missing out because I can't converse with anyone in latin. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: I'm no Johnson fan, but he is the leader (as chosen by the Tory party members) of the governing party - and since the whole country chose that party to govern, he is therefore the PM. Simple - and as usually happens. Party chooses it's leader, Country chooses which party (by electing MPs from a party) governs. Johnson was voted for by 66% Tory party members. To put in in perspective, Corbyn had 59.5% of Labour votes when he was elected. At the last election, the Tory vote was about 13.6M. So if we assume 66% of those Tory voters (as opposed to members) voted for him, about say 8M "voter votes" for him. More than any other party leader. Current opinion polls show his as well out in front compared to any of the other options. Even in the Grauniad https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/06/poll-shows-conservative-party-15-points-ahead-of-labour Another example of the adequacy or otherwise of our democratic system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, oowee said: Another example of the adequacy or otherwise of our democratic system. At least we have a democratic system, dont forget, we are about to be leaving a system, that governs the laws of 28 member nations, and not a single one of them was elected. Oh , and please dont mention the EU parliament, they are like inedible decorations on a cake, pretty, but useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: As one of the "hard of Listening" due to working with explosives and noisy Harriers and Helicopters, perhaps you as one of the "Hard of Thinking" Remoaners could just accept that we voted out, we didn't care about any deals, we just want OUT! I accept that we voted out, now we just need to agree on the details. 2 hours ago, panoma1 said: Bet it’s the same phrase exclaimed in English or Welsh....by any climber if they fall whilst mountaineering? Starts with Oh!.......Ends with ****! I was referring to the correct naming of mountains, lakes and the like e.g. referring to "Mt Snowdon" by it's proper name of Yr Wyddfa 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: I accept that we voted out, now we just need to agree on the details. A process that has been badly hampered by 'rogue elements' Parliament seriously damaging our governments negotiating position ..... assisted by an official opposition who promised to 'respect the referendum result' and have done exactly the opposite - and now seem intent on campaigning for remain. I expect an opposition to oppose the Government, but NOT to oppose a referendum (for which they also voted) result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Rewulf said: Why would you not be happy ? Another referendum without a GE COULD solve nothing , as a minority government could have the leave result blocked AGAIN . Its as democratic , if not more so than the first Ref. No one can say were not informed this time , weve had 3 years to get informed ? The people have chosen an outcome. Whats not to like , beside not remaining ? Is that a serious question. Whilst I would be happy to accept the result I think I can be unhappy about it (the result) at the same time - I appreciate this position does not sit well with those that wish to label us as non democratic remoaners etc. etc. Anyway, so you're in favour of a second vote - great, we're making progress 😛 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: A process that has been badly hampered by 'rogue elements' Parliament seriously damaging our governments negotiating position ..... assisted by an official opposition who promised to 'respect the referendum result' and have done exactly the opposite - and now seem intent on campaigning for remain. I expect an opposition to oppose the Government, but NOT to oppose a referendum (for which they also voted) result. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: A process that has been badly hampered by 'rogue elements' Parliament seriously damaging our governments negotiating position ..... assisted by an official opposition who promised to 'respect the referendum result' and have done exactly the opposite - and now seem intent on campaigning for remain. I expect an opposition to oppose the Government, but NOT to oppose a referendum (for which they also voted) result. I don't disagree with you, except the bit about rogue elements, but again I go back to the point that the whole process was flawed in the first place. Edit: to qualify, unless you include the ERG as an element of the rogue elements? Edited October 7, 2019 by Raja Clavata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I was referring to the correct naming of mountains, lakes and the like e.g. referring to "Mt Snowdon" by it's proper name of Yr Wyddfa 🙂 Quote “My Welsh is pretty much restricted to phrases used in mountaineering” is not referring to using the correct Welsh name for particular lakes and mountains, is it? 🤔 I made the joke based on what you wrote....not on what you said you meant! lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Quote “My Welsh is pretty much restricted to phrases used in mountaineering” is not referring to using the correct Welsh name for particular lakes and mountains, is it? 🤔 I made the joke based on what you wrote....not on what you said you meant! lol! Oh, it was a joke, thanks for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Is that a serious question. Not really, which is why I put the bit at the end 'Whats not to like , beside not remaining ?' Forgot the laugh emoji (busy day at the forge) 5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Anyway, so you're in favour of a second vote - great, we're making progress 😛 Is that a serious assumption ? 😛 The fact is , a second vote , besides further eroding trust in , well..voting, doesnt solve anything unless it confirms MASSIVELY one way or the other, what the country is thinking. And even then, will parliament, with all the laws they have passed to usurp it, be able , or willing to act on it ? Run some scenarios. 52 % remain, even 55 % , would that be enough to keep the Brexiteers calm , when their slim majority was ignored ? 52% leave , take it as far as 60 % , all other problems are still apparent, will Brussels change their stance because the majorities higher ? Of course not. Would parliament pass it , in its present form , unlikely. Do a referendum based on No deal and Mays deal, do parliament still get a vote on it ? Millers law says they do. So we need to revoke that first , cue another high court ruling/block. You only see the problem from a remain perspective. What if theres a vote that gives 60 % to remain , so we revoke A50 and stay, what happens next election when that VERY ANGRY 40 % stick their x in the Brexit party box, and oust whoever took their vote away from them in 2016 ~? And so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Not really, which is why I put the bit at the end 'Whats not to like , beside not remaining ?' Forgot the laugh emoji (busy day at the forge) Is that a serious assumption ? 😛 The fact is , a second vote , besides further eroding trust in , well..voting, doesnt solve anything unless it confirms MASSIVELY one way or the other, what the country is thinking. And even then, will parliament, with all the laws they have passed to usurp it, be able , or willing to act on it ? Run some scenarios. 52 % remain, even 55 % , would that be enough to keep the Brexiteers calm , when their slim majority was ignored ? 52% leave , take it as far as 60 % , all other problems are still apparent, will Brussels change their stance because the majorities higher ? Of course not. Would parliament pass it , in its present form , unlikely. Do a referendum based on No deal and Mays deal, do parliament still get a vote on it ? Millers law says they do. So we need to revoke that first , cue another high court ruling/block. You only see the problem from a remain perspective. What if theres a vote that gives 60 % to remain , so we revoke A50 and stay, what happens next election when that VERY ANGRY 40 % stick their x in the Brexit party box, and oust whoever took their vote away from them in 2016 ~? And so on. I'm trying to see it from all three perspectives. The thing is your scenarios don't matter because apparently you Brexiteers "know" you are going to walk it. Some of you are so cock sure and it's even been verified by the fact that you don't know anyone who has changed position from leave to remain. Nailed on. Job jobbed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 i have a sneeking suspision that the EU will agree to a deal in the next few days..........their biggest milch cow is Das Riech and it is falling into resession....and their subs are based on their GDP........which will drop......and the EU are desperate for cash to keep them in style and pensions....and they now need our 35billion.....so they will agree noooowww......whether parliament will agree to the deal is another matter...... what say yeee............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Oh, it was a joke, thanks for clarifying. It transpires the joke was what you claim you referred to.........not the one I based on what you originally wrote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 minute ago, panoma1 said: It transpires the joke was what you claim you referred to.........not the one I based on what you originally wrote! Neither particularly funny then. This discussion is even less interesting than Brexit but I suppose as you have so little to actually say on that topic this is a welcome distraction 😛 All that said, I am truly sorry for the misunderstanding (on your part). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I'm trying to see it from all three perspectives. The thing is your scenarios don't matter because apparently you Brexiteers "know" you are going to walk it. Some of you are so cock sure and it's even been verified by the fact that you don't know anyone who has changed position from leave to remain. Nailed on. Job jobbed... 2 things, they are examples I plucked out the air, Im asking you to run your own scenarios, and if you really are trying to see all sides, then you will surely see how seriously impossible it is to stay now. The other thing is , where do you get the cock sure bit from, Im not convinced we are leaving by any stretch , virtually anything could be pulled out the remain bag ! Im still expecting a scrumping conviction to surface from BJs murky past , barring him from being PM 😂 Nothing would surprise me, the 'jail for leaving' case will be up for an appeal shortly, can you not see the absurdity ? Like Ive said , at length , if there was any chance of remain winning a 2nd Ref. , we would have had it by now. There isnt, so there wont, and anyone calling for one, is simply playing a bad distraction politics game. Edited October 7, 2019 by Rewulf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, ditchman said: i have a sneeking suspision that the EU will agree to a deal in the next few days..........their biggest milch cow is Das Riech and it is falling into resession....and their subs are based on their GDP........which will drop......and the EU are desperate for cash to keep them in style and pensions....and they now need our 35billion.....so they will agree noooowww......whether parliament will agree to the deal is another matter...... what say yeee............... Since the majority of parliament are acting in the best interests of the nation in general, and their constituents in particular, I think there is a fair chance it would go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: Since the majority of parliament are acting in the best interests of the nation in general, and their constituents in particular, I think there is a fair chance it would go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: 2 things, they are examples I plucked out the air, Im asking you to run your own scenarios, and if you really are trying to see all sides, then you will surely see how seriously impossible it is to stay now. The other thing is , where do you get the cock sure bit from, Im not convinced we are leaving by any stretch , virtually anything could be pulled out the remain bag ! Im still expecting a scrumping conviction to surface from BJs murky past , barring him from being PM 😂 Nothing would surprise me, the 'jail for leaving' case will be up for an appeal shortly, can you not see the absurdity ? Like Ive , at length , if there was any chance of remain winning a 2nd Ref. , we would have had it by now. There isnt, so there wont, and anyone calling for one, is simply playing a bad distraction politics game. The absurdity abounds, I too would pretty much rule nothing out (on either side). Just now, Rewulf said: Lol, well I promise I typed it with a straight face but forgot the emoji at the end it seems 😛 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 Zut alors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 17 minutes ago, Rewulf said: . You only see the problem from a remain perspective. What if theres a vote that gives 60 % to remain , so we revoke A50 and stay, what happens next election when that VERY ANGRY 40 % stick their x in the Brexit party box, and oust whoever took their vote away from them in 2016 ~? And so on. The reverse is true also. What happens when we leave reap the consequences and rejoin? When our youth reject the inheritance from the old and demand to rejoin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 Just now, oowee said: The reverse is true also. What happens when we leave reap the consequences and rejoin? It would be the democratic right of the people , and we could start the process of rejoining, realise that its a lot more complicated than we thought, stall for 4 years , wait for them to die ect , and remain , OUT the EU 😂 2 minutes ago, oowee said: When our youth reject the inheritance from the old and demand to rejoin? WHEN they are old enough to vote , they can vote. Until then , they can stare into their screens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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