Raja Clavata Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 Genuine question; Are labour really anti-semitic or just pro Palestinian? I believe there is a difference between the two but suspect others see things differently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Genuine question; Are labour really anti-semitic or just pro Palestinian? I believe there is a difference between the two but suspect others see things differently... The left of the Labour party is strongly anti Semitic; they believe that the ills of the world are due to the global financial system being controlled by the big banking families (Rothschilds, Goldman Sachs, etc.) who are oppressing 'the workers'. I'm serious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 On 26/09/2019 at 14:13, Raja Clavata said: Fortunately that's even less likely than a Labour majority government. Sadly, you may just have to be reminded of that? The loons do indeed have charge of the asylum? Momentum, The EU and the Climate Unwashed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 7 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: The left of the Labour party is strongly anti Semitic; they believe that the ills of the world are due to the global financial system being controlled by the big banking families (Rothschilds, Goldman Sachs, etc.) who are oppressing 'the workers'. I'm serious! This ^^^ The Nazis were socialist and it was the same argument that led to mass genocide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 On 17/10/2019 at 08:59, JohnfromUK said: The left of the Labour party is strongly anti Semitic; they believe that the ills of the world are due to the global financial system being controlled by the big banking families (Rothschilds, Goldman Sachs, etc.) who are oppressing 'the workers'. I'm serious! Where is the evidence of this, is it only the big banks that have Jewish origins or all of them? 17 hours ago, Newbie to this said: This ^^^ The Nazis were socialist and it was the same argument that led to mass genocide. No they were not. 18 hours ago, old man said: Sadly, you may just have to be reminded of that? The loons do indeed have charge of the asylum? Momentum, The EU and the Climate Unwashed? How so? Labour and Corbyn are currently a sick joke... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: Where is the evidence of this, is it only the big banks that have Jewish origins or all of them? Many of the big financial institutions and other businesses do; but it isn't really those that actually have Jewish connections that matters - it is the 'perception'. Those I can think of that 'do' are Rothschilds, Goldman Sachs, Lehmanns Those that don't - JP Morgan, Barings Lots of other large businesses do - Marks and Spencer being a prominent name. Even the left leaning Guardian acknowledges the problem has been long standing in the left. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/shame-of-anitsemitism-on-left-has-long-malign-history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 On 17/10/2019 at 08:47, Raja Clavata said: Genuine question; Are labour really anti-semitic or just pro Palestinian? I believe there is a difference between the two but suspect others see things differently... Well enough of the Labour Party feel that the Party has a problem with anti-semitism, several have spoken out about the subject and many are being de-selected by the constituencies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: No they were not. Yes they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: 17 hours ago, Newbie to this said: The Nazis were socialist and it was the same argument that led to mass genocide. No they were not. They were in fact the national socialist party - historical fact conveniently forgotten by the socialists today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 Zut alors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 Since google is your friend trying looking up "the difference between national socialism and socialism" it's a bit like neoliberalism vs liberalism 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 Doesn't change the fact that they were indeed socialist, the clue is in the name. Just because they don't conform to a certain view of socialism, doesn't mean they weren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 43 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: Doesn't change the fact that they were indeed socialist, the clue is in the name. Just because they don't conform to a certain view of socialism, doesn't mean they weren't. Straight from the Trump school of logic and rhetoric.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: Straight from the Trump school of logic and rhetoric.... No straight from the fact that they were a socialist party. Just because they don't meet with what you call a socialist doesn't make them any less socialist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: No straight from the fact that they were a socialist party. Just because they don't meet with what you call a socialist doesn't make them any less socialist. Okay, so beyond what they called themselves, please highlight which of their policies and actions you consider to be socialist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Many of the big financial institutions and other businesses do; but it isn't really those that actually have Jewish connections that matters - it is the 'perception'. Those I can think of that 'do' are Rothschilds, Goldman Sachs, Lehmanns Those that don't - JP Morgan, Barings Lots of other large businesses do - Marks and Spencer being a prominent name. Even the left leaning Guardian acknowledges the problem has been long standing in the left. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/shame-of-anitsemitism-on-left-has-long-malign-history Thanks John. So this perception is based on a dislike of Jews which I would agree would be anti-semitic whereas being pro-palestinian may be associated with being against the state of Israel. Would you agree with that distinction and indeed that two positions are distinct? If so, could we also perhaps agree then that maybe both the far left and the far right are anti-semitic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery. We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts) We demand a that the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on landand prevention of all speculation in land. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the state must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the state of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Would you agree with that distinction and indeed that two positions are distinct? Yes, but I suspect that in most (probably all) cases people who are anti Semitic would be anti Israel, and conversly, people who are anti Israel are more than likely to be anti Semitic, but perhaps not all. They are likely yo go together. 18 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If so, could we also perhaps agree then that maybe both the far left and the far right are anti-semitic? Yes, I think that is the case, though I suspect in the case of the far right, it is more anti various ethnic groups, including Muslim, Asian, African, Indian and various other groups. Not sure how much of the 'other groups' also applies to the left who I think are more concentrated on the Semitic parts due to the perceived financial manipulation/dominance. Edited October 18, 2019 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery. We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts) We demand a that the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on landand prevention of all speculation in land. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the state must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the state of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession. When I suggested google (or wikipedia in this case) was your friend I should have caveated with so long as you're able to sanity check the information. The 25 point plan was a facade, accepted by historians as a propaganda story to get the Nazi ball rolling. 5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Yes, but I suspect that in most (probably all) cases people who are anti Semitic would be anti Israel, and conversly, people who are anti Israel are more than likely to be anti Semitic, but perhaps not all. They are likely yo go together. Yes, I think that is the case, though I suspect in the case of the far right, it is more anti various ethnic groups, including Muslim, Asian, African, Indian and various other groups. Not sure how much of the 'other groups' also applies to the left who I think are more concentrated on the Semitic parts due to the perceived financial manipulation/dominance. Thanks John, I think you are right and we are aligned in our understanding. Personally I consider myself somewhat anti the state of Israel but not anti-semitic but normally keep my thoughts to myself on this as many will use it to conclude anti-semitic undertones. Good afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Jones Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) On 23/09/2019 at 11:06, JohnfromUK said: Personally I would favour a voting age of 21 ......... when people have had a little time to have some experience of life, are beginning to think about future responsibilities like families and commitments. Most of us (certainly in my generation) went through a late teenage time when the future and responsibilities seemed still in the distant future .......... it's a good time - but not the best time to be making long term planning decisions! How about also only having MPs with life / business experience, rather than skool - Uni - Researcher - LA councillor - MP - PM Edited October 18, 2019 by Capt Christopher Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: How about also only having MPs with life / business experience, rather than skool - Uni - Researcher - LA councillor - MP - PM Or possibly a 'minimum' (and maximum) age for MPs? I would like to be represented with someone who has broad and wide ranging experience of 'life' - and who understands the responsibilities (and challenges) that come with adulthood, family life, bringing up children etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: When I suggested google (or wikipedia in this case) was your friend I should have caveated with so long as you're able to sanity check the information. The 25 point plan was a facade, accepted by historians as a propaganda story to get the Nazi ball rolling. The same with any socialist party (or any party for that matter), once in power everything is on the table. It's just another way to seize power. Seize being the operative word as they were never voted into power. This is also something that Corbyn's Labour are trying to do with the recent talks of a 'government of unity'. There are many similarities with Corbyn's Labour and the Nazis, anti-semitism being just one. Edited October 18, 2019 by Newbie to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: The same with any socialist party (or any party for that matter), once in power everything is on the table. It's just another way to seize power. Seize being the operative word as they were never voted into power. This is also something that Corbyn's Labour are trying to do with the recent talks of a 'government of unity'. There are many similarities with Corbyn's Labour and the Nazis, anti-semitism being just one. OK, thanks. Good Afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 if they get in god help us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumfelter Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Since google is your friend trying looking up "the difference between national socialism and socialism" it's a bit like neoliberalism vs liberalism 🙄 I had a feeling that this topic would come down to neoliberalism Vs liberalism.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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