panoma1 Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, oowee said: I don't recognise this. It could be that the article on Sky and the BBC had got the wrong end of the stick? The message in the card asked for it to be passed on to a human rights activist Peter Humphrys who had been imprisoned in the same camp. Thre girl and her father look to be just randoms. Good idea we can cut the wages of everyone else then as we can create a legal black market economy to undercut what should be competing industry. I would rather prisoners be incentivised into education and rewarded coming out with trades and skills. I don't think I mentioned, or suggested creating a black market economy or undercutting competing industries? I merely suggested convicted criminals should be compelled to work, without pay!........What is produced could then be sold, or paid for at market value and the money earned, used to offset the cost to the taxpayer of keeping them in the slammer! As for Ex-convicts coming out with trades and skills....the re-offending rates seem to indicate this, in real life, is not what is happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 30 minutes ago, panoma1 said: I was suggesting convicted criminals should be compelled to (not given the chance to!) work, not for pay but to offset the cost to the taxpayer of food, upkeep and other facilities and services they receive in prison!.....after all, taxpayers are compelled to contribute to the state, via taxation, out of their work income!........ And still have to pay for theirs! 14 minutes ago, oowee said: can cut the wages of everyone as we can create a legal black market economy to undercut what should be competing industry. I would rather prisoners be incentivised into education and rewarded coming out with trades and skills. I believe the pay is, dependent on job, between £4 and £25 for a 40 hour week. With the loss of privileges if work is refused. What I can't find out is how much the prison service charge out for such work and if this results in an unfair advantage to the company using such labor and therefore in turn a loss of job opportunities for law abiding people. I found these snippets......... A recent report by a cross-party group of MPs warned that prison service funding cuts are seriously jeopardising offender management services and the Rehabilitation Revolution. In the wake of the cuts, Justice Secretary Chris Grayling announced that five more public sector prisons are to be outsourced, raising the total number of privatised prisons to 16. “They’re actually handing the workforce over to private companies like G4S, so they'll be getting the money from prison labour, not the government,” Joe told me. and................. Some have voiced concerns that jobs could be snatched away from law-abiding citizens because of this pay gap. The Ministry of Justice insist that “work for offenders in prison must not be used as a direct replacement for existing jobs in the community”, but things have played out slightly differently in practice. As reported by CAPS, the company Speedy Hire closed 37 depots, slashing 300 jobs, while at the same time employing 200 prisoners to service their plant hire tools. And in August 2012 the Guardian reported that a call centre in South Wales was bussing inmates from an open prison 21 miles away and paying them £3 a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 21 minutes ago, panoma1 said: I don't think I mentioned, or suggested creating a black market economy or undercutting competing industries? I merely suggested convicted criminals should be compelled to work, without pay!........What is produced could then be sold, or paid for at market value and the money earned, used to offset the cost to the taxpayer of keeping them in the slammer! As for Ex-convicts coming out with trades and skills....the re-offending rates seem to indicate this, in real life, is not what is happening? The question is what work could you give them paid or unpaid that would not undercut business? If they fill in pot holes they are under cutting other legitimate business. If they collect litter from the beach for free (as an example) they will just refuse to do it and if you pay for this non competing work where is the money coming from? If we are paying I would rather pay for education. In real life they are not coming out with education, i would guess most are coming out worse off than when they went in. Either way we digress from the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontastic Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 We have a few drives that are really thick brambles and hell to get through, so if we could sign out a few convicts to beat it through it would be an ideal solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, oowee said: The question is what work could you give them paid or unpaid that would not undercut business? If they fill in pot holes they are under cutting other legitimate business. If they collect litter from the beach for free (as an example) they will just refuse to do it and if you pay for this non competing work where is the money coming from? If we are paying I would rather pay for education. In real life they are not coming out with education, i would guess most are coming out worse off than when they went in. Either way we digress from the OP. Debate has the habit of doing that! Anyone can find reasons why something may not work.......the secret is.......making it work! For example.......If the Local Authority pay the going rate to the government (or it’s deducted by the government from the councils yearly SSA) for the prisoners work (beach cleaning, pot hole filling etc) then that money will be available to the exchequer to support the prison service! The same goes for private work! The employer pays the government the going rate for the job....that money in turn would also be available to the exchequer to support the prison service! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: As for Ex-convicts coming out with trades and skills....the re-offending rates seem to indicate this, in real life, is not what is happening? They re offend because its a bloody easy life inside and they don't have to work to live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) On 23/12/2019 at 09:38, panoma1 said: Maybe we should do it here in the UK? 🤔 Now you are talking sense Edited December 24, 2019 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshirelad Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 3 hours ago, panoma1 said: I was suggesting convicted criminals should be compelled to (not given the chance to!) work, not for pay but to offset the cost to the taxpayer of food, upkeep and other facilities and services they receive in prison!.....after all, taxpayers are compelled to contribute to the state, via taxation, out of their work income!........ And still have to pay for theirs! Sadly, they all have 'human rights', so as good as the idea is, it will never be allowed to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 55 minutes ago, Cheshirelad said: Sadly, they all have 'human rights', so as good as the idea is, it will never be allowed to happen. Yep! I’m aware!....But when a criminal can refuse to appear in court, to be tried and sentenced for their crimes..........there’s something drastically wrong with the system! They should be ******* well dragged into court in manacles if necessary, in order to answer for what they have done!.........and once sentenced, required to contribute and pay their dept to society, with the only thing they are able to......the fruits of their labour!....they can then opt for skill based education, to help them when the get out........in their down time....if they so wish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 The problem of finding things for people given community service sentence to do is a very real one in some areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontastic Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 A friend of mine used to do a bit work for Northumberland Wildlife Trust, and on several occasions they had inmates from the local prison help with various projects. Including the removal of Himalayan balsam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Vince Green said: The problem of finding things for people given community service sentence to do is a very real one in some areas. I think that is a different issue Vince? I am speculating on the useful and effective use of criminals time during a custodial sentence! And how they can contribute to, instead of being a drain on society! Edited December 24, 2019 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, panoma1 said: I think that is a different issue Vince? I am speculating on the useful and effective use of criminals time during a custodial sentence! And how they can contribute to, instead of being a drain on society! Why should they do anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, oowee said: Why should they do anything? Because they are a financial drain on society! Why should the taxpayer pay for their crimes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 33 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Because they are a financial drain on society! Why should the taxpayer pay for their crimes? We pay because they are part of society. You can say they should do this or that but why would they? Whats in it for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 33 minutes ago, oowee said: Whats in it for them? Rehabilitation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: Rehabilitation? 🙂 How will doing menials tasks rehabilitate them? How will you convince them it will work. It's a pipe dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, oowee said: 🙂 How will doing menials tasks rehabilitate them? How will you convince them it will work. It's a pipe dream. I thought he was talking about them helping to pay their way by working. Like normal members of society. This would prepare them for re-entering society and getting used to actually working for a living. I thought that was what rehabilitation was, getting prisoners ready to re-enter society. Surely the goal is to get them into work after being released. And while inside, working to pay for their keep would be a big start in preparing them for what work is like. Edited December 24, 2019 by Newbie to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: I think that is a different issue Vince? I am speculating on the useful and effective use of criminals time during a custodial sentence! And how they can contribute to, instead of being a drain on society! No its all inter connected, twenty odd years ago when I was a magistrate we were told not to send people to prison, so we gave community sentences, then we got told there was an overload and people were being sent to swimming baths for two hours a week to serve out their 'community sentences' . Even then they didn't swim but just sat in the changing rooms smoking and playing cards and the leisure centre wanted them out. Finding things for prisoners to do is expensive and time consuming. Much easier to do FA because the officials who run the programmes regard the prisoners as a lost cause (with justification) so why bother? You cant push water up hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Finding things for prisoners to do is expensive and time consuming. Much easier to do FA because the officials who run the programmes regard the prisoners as a lost cause (with justification) so why bother? You cant push water up hill That's why it's optional - some would rather lay on their bed all day and some prefer to work for token pocket money. Well that was my reasoning over 40 years ago. Then I turned a corner as it were and find the story that reformed people try harder to leave their past behind is quite true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted December 25, 2019 Report Share Posted December 25, 2019 18 hours ago, panoma1 said: I think that is a different issue Vince? I am speculating on the useful and effective use of criminals time during a custodial sentence! And how they can contribute to, instead of being a drain on society! The problem has always been the cost of setting these schemes up and running them is greater than the income that is generated by them. Also, finding suitable projects is fraught with issues, most prisoners are not incarcerated for that long so won't build up real skills We are not allowed to subject them to breaking rocks anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBodyImportant Posted December 25, 2019 Report Share Posted December 25, 2019 As long as they are legitimate criminals then chain them to the production line and forget about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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