Reloading fiberwad cartridges

[wymberley]

5 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Apologies I had thought I gave you the thumbs up when you agreed.

And again we agree that fibre/felt/wool/biodegradable is the way we have to go.

As I said I know people who refuse to shoot at some fibre only estates. We took one of those with us this season (he is an RC40 man) set him up with HPE 34/4 and he quaffed at us. After the 1st drive although not convinced he admitted that he was impressed!

By the end of day he was booking any available pegs for next season on an estate he had avoided for over a decade due to the fibre only policy! His own admission was that fibre have come a long way since he last used them.

He only went because of what he was seeing our team doing with them, he is also enquiringly for new 18.4 barrels for his Berreta. 

Little things like this quickly gather momentum especially when the right (factory made) cartridges are available.

I was given some new Cheddite 35/4 Fibbrio to try towards the end of the season and I must say they were equally as impressive if not slightly better than the HPEs.

Long may the manufacturers continue to develop them further.

 

Apology accepted unreservedly. Good post.

[Smokersmith]

15 minutes ago, wymberley said:

how many pellet strikes on average do you think are necessary to achieve the necessary 3 or 4 on every shot as far as would be deemed a reasonable expectation?

I think you already know the answer to the question !

For me … putting 50 pellets into a 'bucket lid' sized circle at 50 yards was enough to give me the confidence with my kit to tackle some very high birds.

[wymberley]

3 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

This is exactly what we have found this season, far more dead in the air head back kills than ever before!

Not only that but the very fast bleed out rate where strike has been to lesser organs such as liver, kidney gizzard, where the bird continues flyingg/gliding after taking pellets to see it collapse out the sky 50 or so yards later.

Speak to most pickers up and these birds are dead, runners tend only to be winged birds nowadays not injured!

Im sure Dave from Kelton can add to this.

Just seen this after I'd posted my last.

Simply out of interest, should you read my reply to Smoker's last post would you care to have a stab at my question?

Cheers

[Perazzishot]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Just seen this after I'd posted my last.

Simply out of interest, should you read my reply to Smoker's last post would you care to have a stab at my question?

Cheers

During the heated debates earlier in the season, I quoted Robert Everett as saying to us his team were very happy with the pattern they were getting at 70yds with 34/4 through 5/8ths in 18.4 bore. Which we accepted. We never saw the patterns!

He subsequently made up some 34/3s, one person said they worked well in 7/8ths whereas I found them better in 5/8ths still.

My plan before the clay gear replaced the game setup was to do 4 or 5 quick pattern tests on my set up this year and see for myself!

I would like to see a 30" circle with no gaps big enough to allow a pheasant through, this would personally give me even more confidence that when I put the shot in the right place enough pellets (3-5) are striking the target! So 30 pellets as a minimum I guess would be acceptable?

 

[rbrowning2]

All very interesting, but still think other than potential balling of shot any other effect on the pattern by escaping gas before the wad is quashed to fit the bore within the forcing cone will be insignificant compared to the effects on pattern of the setback force, scrubbing of shot against the remaining 28 to 32inches of  barrel wall and finally the choke.   Typical fibre wad diameter is around 18.9/19mm.

 

[panoma1]

6 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

All very interesting, but still think other than potential balling of shot any other effect on the pattern by escaping gas before the wad is quashed to fit the bore within the forcing cone will be insignificant compared to the effects on pattern of the setback force, scrubbing of shot against the remaining 28 to 32inches of  barrel wall and finally the choke.   Typical fibre wad diameter is around 18.9/19mm.

 

Gough Thomas wrote in Shotguns and cartridges (I think it was?) that the testing he did on short cartridges in long chambers showed no significant detriment (regarding loss of gasses) to the performance of the cartridge!......Personally I have killed many foreshore geese with a 4 1/4” chambered 8 Bore, using 3 1/4” cartridges......can’t say I noticed any problems...if it was within range and I pointed it straight, I got my goose!

[GingerCat]

I almost always use fibre these days and find them every but as good as plastic. 

[Guest cookoff013]

this thread is utter bonkers. 

just my opinion lads.

[Perazzishot]

3 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Gough Thomas wrote in Shotguns and cartridges (I think it was?) that the testing he did on short cartridges in long chambers showed no significant detriment (regarding loss of gasses) to the performance of the cartridge!......Personally I have killed many foreshore geese with a 4 1/4” chambered 8 Bore, using 3 1/4” cartridges......can’t say I noticed any problems...if it was within range and I pointed it straight, I got my goose!

But that was 57 years ago that book was written!

You wouldn’t use 1963 clay cartridges in a clay competition and expect to shoot as well anyone using modern day cartridges pointing it in the right direction or not?

[wymberley]

13 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

But that was 57 years ago that book was written!

You wouldn’t use 1963 clay cartridges in a clay competition and expect to shoot as well anyone using modern day cartridges pointing it in the right direction or not?

And the barrels weren't back-bored and the wads were probably proper kleena.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

And the barrels weren't back-bored and the wads were probably proper kleena.

And if you gave him a gun that’s available today and the modern cartridge and asked him to pick the best combination what do you think he would pick? 
things are moving forward Cartriges are improving and the performance is changing 

 

[Vince Green]

fibre wads cant punch a hole in the pattern, that's one of the old myths put around by the American cartridge makers years ago when they were trying to foist plastic wads on a resistant shooting public who were perfectly happy with fibre wads.

The wad is much less aerodynamic, there is no way it can travel faster than the shot. High speed photography shows the wad dropping back from the shot as soon as they both leave the barrel

Back in the 60s the American cartridge makers desperately needed to convert shooters to plastic wads because it was the only way they could run their machinery at the higher speeds and produce the volumes they wanted. They started on an advertising campaign that was not quite truthful. 

Plus plastic wads were a lot cheaper to produce, they had to sell the idea of plastic wads and there was no such thing as advertising standards back then.

All sorts of outlandish claims were made about the superiority of plastic wads, many of them you still hear repeated today,  and in return bad claims about fibre wads were made.

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

You wouldn’t use 1963 clay cartridges in a clay competition and expect to shoot as well anyone using modern day cartridges pointing it in the right direction or not?

Seriously, I would, in many ways they were better IMHO but they would cost a lot more

[Walker570]

2 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

But that was 57 years ago that book was written!

You wouldn’t use 1963 clay cartridges in a clay competition and expect to shoot as well anyone using modern day cartridges pointing it in the right direction or not?

I shot a lot of clays back in the 60s and 70s at least twice a week and reading all this I wonder how on earth we managed to consistently break 25 straight at DTL and skeet, with the cartridges we had available back then.  We must have been super human. 

[dipper]

10 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

During the heated debates earlier in the season, I quoted Robert Everett as saying to us his team were very happy with the pattern they were getting at 70yds with 34/4 through 5/8ths in 18.4 bore. Which we accepted. We never saw the patterns!

He subsequently made up some 34/3s, one person said they worked well in 7/8ths whereas I found them better in 5/8ths still.

My plan before the clay gear replaced the game setup was to do 4 or 5 quick pattern tests on my set up this year and see for myself!

I would like to see a 30" circle with no gaps big enough to allow a pheasant through, this would personally give me even more confidence that when I put the shot in the right place enough pellets (3-5) are striking the target! So 30 pellets as a minimum I guess would be acceptable?

 

3 or 5 striking the target so 30? At a minimum would be acceptable ?Shoudent that be 130 ?

[Perazzishot]

9 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

Back in the day, plastic came in and made such a difference to how cartridges shoot. I've the 8 bore reloading books that were published by Douglas McDougal at the time, and his data showed a huge improvements in 8 bore patterns, and 12g stuff also improved.

 

Sounds like that can't be true if you read above

 

59 minutes ago, dipper said:

3 or 5 striking the target so 30? At a minimum would be acceptable ?Shoudent that be 130 ?

Why?

[rbrowning2]

Perazzishot,  you appear to struggle with the concept of a shotgun it is a scatter gun pure and simple no two patterns will ever be the exactly the same even with the same gun and same cartridge.

Nothing much has changed to alter that since it’s invention, yes we (or most) have moved away from muzzle loading and had advances like primers and non corrosive primers as a method of ignition with the invention of the cartridge.

However the shot in modern history is still just a little round ball of mainly lead with very poor aerodynamic ballistic properties, fibre wads are noting more than a case filler in practice it is the obturator card that mainly seals the bore, powder may be cleaner burning but velocity is velocity how ever obtained and due to the little lead ball is quickly lost the faster you try and push it through the air, so past say 30yards for the same size shot a 1450ft/sec or 1150ft/sec will be travelling at virtually the same velocity and pellet energy, certainly not a big enough difference to make any significant difference. Potentially what the faster cartridge does to is risk delivering a poor pattern than the slower one due to the pellet damage being greater the faster you try and accelerate them down the barrel.

Their is no magic to any of this.
 

[Perazzishot]

50 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Perazzishot,  you appear to struggle with the concept of a shotgun it is a scatter gun pure and simple no two patterns will ever be the exactly the same even with the same gun and same cartridge.

Nothing much has changed to alter that since it’s invention, yes we (or most) have moved away from muzzle loading and had advances like primers and non corrosive primers as a method of ignition with the invention of the cartridge.

However the shot in modern history is still just a little round ball of mainly lead with very poor aerodynamic ballistic properties, fibre wads are noting more than a case filler in practice it is the obturator card that mainly seals the bore, powder may be cleaner burning but velocity is velocity how ever obtained and due to the little lead ball is quickly lost the faster you try and push it through the air, so past say 30yards for the same size shot a 1450ft/sec or 1150ft/sec will be travelling at virtually the same velocity and pellet energy, certainly not a big enough difference to make any significant difference. Potentially what the faster cartridge does to is risk delivering a poor pattern than the slower one due to the pellet damage being greater the faster you try and accelerate them down the barrel.

Their is no magic to any of this.
 

So when I was being crucified for not using a pattern plate on here by members on here where was your comment on no 2 patterns being the same? ( I agree entirely BTW) I buy cartridges 10,000 at a time how many am I expected to pattern?

As for the principal of the shotgun I completely agree but also accept that improvements can, are and have been made and will will continue. It's understanding that little developments can make subtle and advantageous differences! Cartridge manufacturers doing the extensive research and testing are not going to broadcast their recipes to all and sundry while they have gained an advantage. Whether that be an actual development or some very good advertising ( I'm not naive)

However over the decades we have had major developments to our traditional S/S and 2.5" cartridges.

Im not going to list all of them but Cheddite have made a cartridge which does not scatter any shot until 100 metres fired out a normal shotgun with half chokes. It then begins to pattern after 100 metres. 

Everytime you post on here it is disbelieved, unproven or just BS. It isn't so do you not think every cartridge manufacturer is not now playing with this concept?

Eley released their clay cartridge (name escapes me) with a promo video of consistent clean breaks at 90 yds.

We had the new world record long shot at the World Chapionship last year in Chicargo at 105 metres (I think)

Obviously what I have seen and killed this season on my shoot days.

I think enough evidence is out there that improvements have and are being made to cartridges and guns to be making an improvement!

 

[rbrowning2]

But these specialist cartridges are not the ones 99.9% of us shoot? And I bet they are not fibre wads.

Try this buy a range of different fibre wad cartridges from different makes and cut one open of each then look at the obturator and fibre wads and report back how many different types you find and what that unique feature is that makes them different.

The best way to get the best pattern is to keep as many pellets as perfect spheres as possible which is why steel shot patterns tighter than lead. In my experience steel shot is manufactured to a higher spherical quality than lead to start with and being harder deforms less on firing.

 

[Smokersmith]

28 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The best way to get the best pattern is to keep as many pellets as perfect spheres as possible which is why steel shot patterns tighter than lead. In my experience steel shot is manufactured to a higher spherical quality than lead to start with and being harder deforms less on firing.

That is indeed one area that the industry has made progress on … better quality harder shot.

I'll bet a modern high bird jobbie will pattern tighter than say an old Eley maximum (spec for spec) for precisely that reason.

[Perazzishot]

Here is something to have a think about and I only speculate and put 2+2 together.

i asked why on my new Mirokus if they were so keen to keep the chambers and bores so gas tight why did they make the chambers 3"?

The answer was to make them future proof.

This would imply to meet we are going to start seeing 3" fibre cartridges or more likely more steel loads being loaded in 3" cases like the RC Hyerfast 34g technosteel!

Again where cartridge manufacturers are busy developing the next generation of performance cartridges.

[rbrowning2]

17 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Here is something to have a think about and I only speculate and put 2+2 together.

i asked why on my new Mirokus if they were so keen to keep the chambers and bores so gas tight why did they make the chambers 3"?

The answer was to make them future proof.

This would imply to meet we are going to start seeing 3" fibre cartridges or more likely more steel loads being loaded in 3" cases like the RC Hyerfast 34g technosteel!

Again where cartridge manufacturers are busy developing the next generation of performance cartridges.

That’s because steel is much lighter than lead so recommended advice is you go up two sizes on shot size to retain the same down range energy as lead, which means to keep a decent pattern you need more space in the case so hence yes 3inch cases for 34gm steel shoot.

start cutting open them lead shot fibre cartridges and post the pictures start with your favourite game cartridge and then a budget clay cartridge by the same make and see how the fibre wads differ?

Future proof because the future is steel shot many would say, hence the gun makers are ensuring their guns can be used that way.

Edited February 11, 2020 by rbrowning2

[wymberley]

12 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Sounds like that can't be true if you read above

 

Why?

I would hazard a guess and suggest that Dipper is referring to the 30" circle. We can only surmise as you've given no idea as to what your 30 refers.

Now that the season is over and you have some time on your hands, it wouldn't do your credibility any harm at all and in fact would get it in the ascendent from the flat line, if you were to do those pattern test that you mentioned. There's no need to do the 10,000, just 6 will suffice. I'm sure someone local enough to you on here would be quite happy to come along and help as you're going to need a big 'plate' of some sort. Various silly ranges up to 100 yards have been mentioned, but could we settle for, say, 80?

However, being realistic, the answer to this whole debate is as it so often is - if it's made, if it's there and available someone will want it and buy it irrespective of rhyme or reason - as ever, is to follow the money.

[GingerCat]

Back to the original question. I've used fibre pretty much exclusively on pigeons and clays (sometimes plastic on clays if they are cheap and I'm short on carts and occasionally plastic on pigeon if there are any left over from clays). And I can say quite honestly that I notice no difference between them. That may be because I'm a woefully poor shot or it may be that fibre is as good as plastic. What I've not noticed are any holes in the patterns. If there are then it doesn't seem to make a difference to the end result. 

As an aside I did nice kill a close pigeon with the fibre wad, it came in low and fast over a hedge and I was too far in front, I knew that the second I pulled the trigger. Quite amazed it dropped dead. Upon recovery the wad was embedded in its crown and the bird didn't have a pellet in it. Clearly the pellets are some way in front of the wad after firing (this was under 15 yards). It they were to cause holes it expect the wad to be with or in front of the pattern.  

[wymberley]

Yep, S in H gave us the answer on Friday evening.