Lead ban & BASC

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Fact, you mean the one my post hinted at that wildflowers pay more for the cartridges 

Are you suggesting that once steel is the norm for cartridges that the price will not drop.

Edit - just out of curiosity who are them??

Steel will not come down any was mine new  in 1980

 

19 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Hang on Takes a minute to resise Picture 

It looks ok put it this way i got my one of these exact same gun bought me brand new in 1981 its only 1/4 &3/4 though its fine on 1600fps steel reloads.

 

[6.5x55SE]

12 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Don’t give them facts they don’t want any of them, what i would really like to know is how any of this coming in is going to drop our ammo prices , how about you?

As you know Steel shot along with other non toxic shot is Spawn of the Devil and those that use it are   😈 

[Old farrier]

5 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Steel will not come down any was mine new  in 1980

 

It looks ok put it this way i got my one of these exact same gun bought me brand new in 1981 its only 1/4 &3/4 though its fine on 1600fps steel reloads.

 

Sorry I’m not multilingual and can’t understand Spanish?

 

[Newbie to this]

8 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Steel will not come down any was mine new  in 1980

So what you are effectively saying is no matter what the cartridge manufacturers come up with, this is going to hit every shooter in the pocket. 

And you didn't answer my other question

18 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

just out of curiosity who are them??

6 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

As you know Steel shot along with other non toxic shot is Spawn of the Devil and those that use it are   😈 

Not sure where you get that from 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Newbie to this

[Scully]

47 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Proof house link please? 

I have no idea if there even is a link, 🤷‍♂️ nor do I have any intention of looking for one. The 'official' advice I am referring to doesn't come from the proof house as far as I know, but cartridge manufacturers, gun makers and our shooting organisations. They advise that nitro proofed guns are perfectly capable of coping with standard steel through ANY choke, but nothing tighter than half for HP steel. This has been the official line for years now; and with all the hullabaloo surrounding steel shot over the past few years, I can't believe as a shooter you aren't aware of that. 

It's worth remembering that it is only the plastic wad that prevents even your steel shot proofed gun barrels from being scored, and nothing at all to do with choke. 

Using standard steel shot through nitro proofed guns will not invalidate your shooting organisation insurance....and that's official. 

There may be link somewhere....let us know if you find one. 

If you aren't happy with the idea of using HP steel just use standard, and you're ready to go. 👍

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scully

[rbrowning2]

From lowden,  they see an opportunity.

Metal

Bismuth / Tin Master Alloy For Shotgun Cartridges
 

We now have available the master alloy for Bismuth shot gun cartridge reloading,
This alloy is Bismuth with a small percentage of Tin and is available in small 50g pellets or 1 kilo ingots, If you have the shot making casting machine simply use this pre-mastered alloy to produce your shot. 

Please see our separate pages on

Bismuth / Tin

please send email for current pricing

 

 

[lancer425]

13 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Fact, you mean the one my post hinted at that wildflowers pay more for their cartridges 

Are you suggesting that once steel is the norm for cartridges that the price will not drop.

If so it makes this whole fiasco even more of a joke, the shooting orgs would have effectively raised the cost of everyones (well accept wildflowers of course) shooting.

Edit - just out of curiosity who are them??

This will not drop the price for wildfowlers at all our bill is set to rise because of this not fall. "BIO WADS". our Quarry is still alive so we get hit yet again.

 And them? IS you because YOU said it. was mine new  in 1980

[Newbie to this]

5 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

This will not drop the price for wildfowlers at all our bill is set to rise because of this not fall. "BIO WADS". our Quarry is still alive so we get hit yet again.

 

So once mass produced you don't see the price dropping  OK fair enough.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Newbie to this

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

From lowden,  they see an opportunity.

Metal

Bismuth / Tin Master Alloy For Shotgun Cartridges
 

We now have available the master alloy for Bismuth shot gun cartridge reloading,
This alloy is Bismuth with a small percentage of Tin and is available in small 50g pellets or 1 kilo ingots, If you have the shot making casting machine simply use this pre-mastered alloy to produce your shot. 

Please see our separate pages on

Bismuth / Tin

please send email for current pricing

 

 

No i want it 99% pure i only use 6" tin on USA BBs from roto i can not make these. anything i drop is lower tin usually 3%. If you do your research on bismuth it expands as it cools. First noticed it moulding AAA.

[rbrowning2]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

No i want it 99% pure i only use 6" tin on USA BBs from roto i can not make these. anything i drop is lower tin usually 3%. If you do your research on bismuth it expands as it cools. First noticed it moulding AAA.

Did not Eley when they first introduced bismuth shot have problems with it falling apart due to it being to brittle? Hence the tin content.

yes I know it expands as it cools.

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

 

So once massed produced you don't see the price dropping  OK fair enough.

It wont its used by way more than just wildfowlers now, the bio wad factory is extortionate. Wildfowlers are set for a price rise not a fall.

 Take my advice reload.

[rbrowning2]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

It wont its used by way more than just wildfowlers now, the bio wad factory is extortionate. Wildfowlers are set for a price rise not a fall.

 Take my advice reload.

For steel shot and biodegradable wads your only option may be only the C&G cardboard cup wads. It which case copper or bismuth shot with a traditional fibre wad may work out cheaper and the only option especially for gauges other than 12ga.

could be a long time before other biodegradable wads are available to reloader.

 

[lancer425]

Just now, rbrowning2 said:

Did not Eley when they first introduced bismuth shot have problems with it falling apart due to it being to brittle? Hence the tin content.

yes I know it expands as it cools.

, Its to do with how its dropped long or short drop. Tower dropped or moulded, i have always thought BBs were moulded but no evidence one way or other.

 Roto is pretty much on 6£ from what i could tell. RIO i got some sent me is lower yet you would think its ELEY hense typical, but apparently not. 3% works fine of you load it properly, most issues with bismuth is all down to powder and component choice/ buffering. i saw 5% reduction in patterns just by GAEPing over the crimp. its fussy and fascinating at the same time. i like Bismuth i must admit.

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

For steel shot and biodegradable wads your only option may be only the C&G cardboard cup wads. It which case copper or bismuth shot with a traditional fibre wad may work out cheaper and the only option especially for gauges other than 12ga.

could be a long time before other biodegradable wads are available to reloader.

 

Not for me its £3.50 for 25. I am going it alone i just decided today. only way forward for what i want my loads to do.

[rbrowning2]

BB are made by swaging, lead wire is fed between two rotating precision drums, each drum has half a BB hole shaped in it as the two drums come together you get a whole BB the waste band, flashing, round the middle where the two half’s came together is then removed as a second operation between two plates, like used in ball bearing manufacture.

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by rbrowning2

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

BB are made by swaging, lead wire is fed between two rotating precision drums, each drum has half a BB hole shaped in it as the two drums come together you get a whole BB the waste band, flashing, round the middle where the two half’s came together is then removed as a second operation between two plates, like used in ball bearing manufacture.

 

I had no idea that was how it was done, but i saw the signs but had no evidence . now i know for definite.

I think some of Bismuths alleged brittlenes comes about down to the melt temp, keep that constant its tough, but if you dont pree heat ingots being added to the melt or your melt temp fluctuates its not just the consistency its the structure / metallurgy. not sure of words to use its strength generally resistance to break up can vary in these circumstances. 

[rbrowning2]

20 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

, Its to do with how its dropped long or short drop. Tower dropped or moulded, i have always thought BBs were moulded but no evidence one way or other.

 Roto is pretty much on 6£ from what i could tell. RIO i got some sent me is lower yet you would think its ELEY hense typical, but apparently not. 3% works fine of you load it properly, most issues with bismuth is all down to powder and component choice/ buffering. i saw 5% reduction in patterns just by GAEPing over the crimp. its fussy and fascinating at the same time. i like Bismuth i must admit.

Not for me its £3.50 for 25. I am going it alone i just decided today. only way forward for what i want my loads to do.

Would like to share how you can get to such a great price £3.50 for 25

the cooling bismuth will grow crystals or grains so their could be some logic in what you say, natural quality  bismuth crystals fetch a premium price with collectors of mineral.

 

[Rob85]

42 minutes ago, Scully said:

I have no idea if there even is a link, 🤷‍♂️ nor do I have any intention of looking for one. The 'official' advice I am referring to doesn't come from the proof house as far as I know, but cartridge manufacturers, gun makers and our shooting organisations. They advise that nitro proofed guns are perfectly capable of coping with standard steel through ANY choke, but nothing tighter than half for HP steel. This has been the official line for years now; and with all the hullabaloo surrounding steel shot over the past few years, I can't believe as a shooter you aren't aware of that. 

It's worth remembering that it is only the plastic wad that prevents even your steel shot proofed gun barrels from being scored, and nothing at all to do with choke. 

Using standard steel shot through nitro proofed guns will not invalidate your shooting organisation insurance....and that's official. 

There may be link somewhere....let us know if you find one. 

If you aren't happy with the idea of using HP steel just use standard, and you're ready to go. 👍

These are a couple of screen grabs from the BASC website regarding using standard pressure steel. So the proof house recommends a traditional lightweight game gun should not shoot steel through any more than quarter choke. So would that mean my 1960s Aya yeoman would be better opened out?

[panoma1]

I understand large Bismuth shot was made in two halves (I was told it was made for Eley in the USA?) stuck together, this early two piece large shot, used to separate (break apart) in the tub! This I believe, is where the reputation for brittleness came from?

I remember years ago buying tubs of Eley BB Bismuth (in 2.5kilo tubs I think?)......and finding lots of halves.

[rbrowning2]

52 minutes ago, Scully said:

I have no idea if there even is a link, 🤷‍♂️ nor do I have any intention of looking for one. The 'official' advice I am referring to doesn't come from the proof house as far as I know, but cartridge manufacturers, gun makers and our shooting organisations. They advise that nitro proofed guns are perfectly capable of coping with standard steel through ANY choke, but nothing tighter than half for HP steel. This has been the official line for years now; and with all the hullabaloo surrounding steel shot over the past few years, I can't believe as a shooter you aren't aware of that. 

It's worth remembering that it is only the plastic wad that prevents even your steel shot proofed gun barrels from being scored, and nothing at all to do with choke. 

Using standard steel shot through nitro proofed guns will not invalidate your shooting organisation insurance....and that's official. 

There may be link somewhere....let us know if you find one. 

If you aren't happy with the idea of using HP steel just use standard, and you're ready to go. 👍

Not quite ready to go in my 28gauge.

lots of conflicting advice on steel shot type and chokes hence was interested in what the proof house has to say rather than organisations with a vested interest in us using steel or folklore.

 

 

5 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I understand large Bismuth shot was made in two halves (I was told it was made for Eley in the USA?) stuck together, this early two piece large shot, used to separate (break apart) in the tub! This I believe, is where the reputation for brittleness came from?

I remember years ago buying tubs of Eley BB Bismuth (in 2.5kilo tubs I think?)......and finding lots of halves.

Thanks for posting, may be bismuth does not swage together as good as lead.

This is the technology

http://ramba.it/en/prodotti-scheda-prodotto.php?id=ramba-115-380

 

 

[lancer425]

7 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Would like to share how you can get to such a great price £3.50 for 25

the cooling bismuth will grow crystals or grains so their could be some logic in what you say, natural quality  bismuth crystals fetch a premium price with collectors of mineral.

 

Sorry i am meaning Card cup wading. is £350 for 25 aprox a bit cheaper from armourer but they buy from CGR anyway work that out. Not looked on SIARM yet they might do them. But i think i am going it alone.

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

These are a couple of screen grabs from the BASC website regarding using standard pressure steel. So the proof house recommends a traditional lightweight game gun should not shoot steel through any more than quarter choke. So would that mean my 1960s Aya yeoman would be better opened out?

If that’s what they recommend and what you would feel happier doing, then I’m no one to advise you do different. I owned an AYA Yeoman with 3” chambers ( if that’s the right model ) choked at 1/2 and 3/4, and I had absolutely no qualms about putting standard steel through it. It even had HP steel through it on several occasions, but that was my choice. It’s still doing the rounds in our syndicate none the worse for wear.

Another mate with a full choked Mossberg simply removed the constriction by cropping two inch off the barrel, and now uses it for everything ( including HP steel ) as cylinder. 
This could be an option for your AYA if you choose that route, but don’t let anyone tell you it requires reproof if you do choose this route...it doesn’t. You cannot proof something which isn’t there. 
I can’t think why anyone would want to have a gun multi choked if they just intend to shoot steel through it. 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scully
Auto correct.

[rbrowning2]

Just now, lancer425 said:

Sorry i am meaning Card cup wading. is £350 for 25 aprox a bit cheaper from armourer but they buy from CGR anyway work that out. Not looked on SIARM yet they might do them. But i think i am going it alone.

Siarm are very unlikely to offer them they were invented by the now owner of clay and game when at gamebore who own the patent so made in the UK for once.

 

[lancer425]

20 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Would like to share how you can get to such a great price £3.50 for 25

the cooling bismuth will grow crystals or grains so their could be some logic in what you say, natural quality  bismuth crystals fetch a premium price with collectors of mineral.

 

No idea but it gets bigger  as it cools. its DPH is better than lead AFAICT but again  just on how it patterns not had it vickers  tested. Thing is to get it to pattern you got to load it properly, or lose a %age to break up. not an option. I think this is why some do not get on with it that well.  .

[Scully]

16 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Not quite ready to go in my 28gauge.

lots of conflicting advice on steel shot type and chokes hence was interested in what the proof house has to say rather than organisations with a vested interest in us using steel or folklore.

 

 

 

 

 

I think there's a bit more to it than folklore, where do you think our organisations got the advice? From cartridge manufacturers quite possibly? 

If in doubt you could always ring the proof house and ask, or Teague, or the gun manufacturers; after all, it's not like they don't have a vested interest in selling you something you don't need.....is it? 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Scully

[lancer425]

7 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Siarm are very unlikely to offer them they were invented by the now owner of clay and game when at gamebore who own the patent so made in the UK for once.

Thats good he needs to get them made a hell of a lot cheaper then.

 

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

I think there's a bit more to it than folklore, where do you think our organisations got the advice? From cartridge manufacturers quite possibly? 

If in doubt you could always ring the proof house and ask, or Teague, or the gun manufacturers; after all, it's not like they don't have a vested interest in selling you something you don't need.....is it? 

 

Not 100% but think that is CIP not BASC etc.