lancer425 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: David it was much simpler for the fishing industry, you just attach a tiny weight to the line, your family heirloom or much loved fishing rod was still able to be used and did not become potentially a wall hanger and whilst the weights may have doubled in price is was still only a few pounds not a few hundreds of pounds, not all of us earn basc salaries. You have made a massive u turn without consulting anybody especially the trade if you have then publish the minutes of the meeting and the contents of the emails you sent to the trade prior to the announcement, how hard can that be? Why can you not just say what you want to say and leave it at that, You were doing ok, but then you just can not help yourself, you have to DIG and whack in the part about we do not all earn BASC salaries. Why do you do that. ? Ots not helpfull and not doing yourself any favours at all. JUST SAYING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 We are moving though a 5 year phase where we will see significant developments regarding non lead cartridges, and from what I have heard a key to this will be a 2 1/2 inch standard steel load, and no one is saying switch over today. With regard to consultations, I cant speak for the other organisations, but as far as BASC is concerned how we operate is enshrined within the constitution and rules, via the elected members of BASC who sit on Council and represent the interests of members. But I return to the point that no one is saying we must change over totally within the next few months, we are in a long period of change, and working together and accepting that change has to happen will be important. Ignoring this or failing to engage will achieve nothing. I agree that communication is key and there will be more and regular communications on this important topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, andrewluke said: ask lancer425 as he seems to know the ins & outs of BASC and the cartridge companies,i think he's an undercover agent OH that is shabby even by your low standards kind sir, You Judas you viper in the what’s its name you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, 8 shot said: It will cost me in excess of £2700 to convert my guns for steel just to hold there value which is not to be sniffed at. My only steel proof gun is a semi auto, not suitable really for game shooting Here's an idea David@BASC why not negotiate a discount though the BASC with Teague chokes for all thought who need his service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 Does anyone happen to know the reason why - that's if there is one, I can think of just one possibility - NTS morphed into non lead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) David, is there a similar plan in the pipeline for rifles? Will there be any consultation with cartridge or bullet manufacturers beforehand? What will be the argument for the retention of lead for use for quarry? I'm genuinely concerned that, whilst this announcement does not on the surface appear to target rifle shooters, it opens the door to that legislation being tabled in the near future. There are no viable, non-toxic, sub-sonic alternatives for 22lr. The US has had years to develop some (California for example) and has thus far produced two alternatives to lead, neither are subsonic, one doesn't stabilise well beyond 40 yards. There is only ONE alternative for 17 cal. in one weight. It's more than twice the price per bullet as compared to jacketed alternatives. There are a few for larger calibers, but in the case of the 243 the deer legal, 100gr projectile for larger species will not stabilise in a standard factory 1 in 10 twist due to length. There is no alternative whatsoever that will work in vintage/heritage rifles and many lever actioned rifles. I realise, there is no statement made relating to rifles, you must be able to see the problems this move potentially poses to other sectors of the shooting industry. Edited March 9, 2020 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, David BASC said: We are moving though a 5 year phase where we will see significant developments regarding non lead cartridges, and from what I have heard a key to this will be a 2 1/2 inch standard steel load, and no one is saying switch over today. With regard to consultations, I cant speak for the other organisations, but as far as BASC is concerned how we operate is enshrined within the constitution and rules, via the elected members of BASC who sit on Council and represent the interests of members. But I return to the point that no one is saying we must change over totally within the next few months, we are in a long period of change, and working together and accepting that change has to happen will be important. Ignoring this or failing to engage will achieve nothing. I agree that communication is key and there will be more and regular communications on this important topic. as you agree communication is so important if you would be good enough to post basc communications proving basc did consult with cartridge manufacturers we can settle the matter of who is correct for everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 35 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Why can you not just say what you want to say and leave it at that, You were doing ok, but then you just can not help yourself, you have to DIG and whack in the part about we do not all earn BASC salaries. Why do you do that. ? Ots not helpfull and not doing yourself any favours at all. JUST SAYING. why have you seem to give an answer/reply to every question asked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, David BASC said: We are moving though a 5 year phase where we will see significant developments regarding non lead cartridges, and from what I have heard a key to this will be a 2 1/2 inch standard steel load, and no one is saying switch over today. With regard to consultations, I cant speak for the other organisations, but as far as BASC is concerned how we operate is enshrined within the constitution and rules, via the elected members of BASC who sit on Council and represent the interests of members. But I return to the point that no one is saying we must change over totally within the next few months, we are in a long period of change, and working together and accepting that change has to happen will be important. Ignoring this or failing to engage will achieve nothing. I agree that communication is key and there will be more and regular communications on this important topic. Thank you for the reply however as you’re aware the game season is coming this year and to comply with the voluntary ban what cartridges do we shoot with as I’m sure the game dealers will prefer to have a safe lead free product to sell as soon as possible will I have to have the chokes opened ? Currently 1/2..3/4 in one and full and extra full in the other reproofing will take time and added risk is my gun covered by insurance if it fails the additional requirements for the new proof ? also the time needed to pattern test sadly not easy in my case or many others as with a fixed choke gun boated and regulated for my chosen game cartridge how do I get the similar pattern? sorry for the questions but I’m a little uncertain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 minute ago, andrewluke said: why have you seem to give an answer/reply to every question asked Glad you asked this, because i am currently recovering from a operation on my back following a motorcycle accident nothing dramatic i fell off a rock and landed on some more, and i am paying the price for not wearing a back protector. I am bored **** less and i do love my sport and i am taking my chance wile i am in a position too. To promote what i believe is the right way of looking at the situation we are in right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 I will ask my college who looks after member offers about Teague chokes Regarding rifle ammo, yes fully understand the points, and in some calibres there is much work to be done As to asking specific question re communications clangerman - please use this link lead@basc.org.uk As to what cartridges you will shoot with this game season, well its up to you, if you are supplying into the supermarkets you will need in many cases to ensure its not lead you are using. As to the insurance on your gun I can only say that you need to ask the insurer of your guns and other shooting equipment As to patterning, I can only suggest you discuss this with the cartridge suppliers , your local gun dealer or shooting ground. No need to apologise for asking questions, I am sure your concern is genuine, but please understand I am not the Oracle ( a la The Matrix) and do not have the answer to everything that may happen in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, David BASC said: I will ask my college who looks after member offers about Teague chokes Regarding rifle ammo, yes fully understand the points, and in some calibres there is much work to be done As to asking specific question re communications clangerman - please use this link lead@basc.org.uk As to what cartridges you will shoot with this game season, well its up to you, if you are supplying into the supermarkets you will need in many cases to ensure its not lead you are using. As to the insurance on your gun I can only say that you need to ask the insurer of your guns and other shooting equipment As to patterning, I can only suggest you discuss this with the cartridge suppliers , your local gun dealer or shooting ground. No need to apologise for asking questions, I am sure your concern is genuine, but please understand I am not the Oracle ( a la The Matrix) and do not have the answer to everything that may happen in the future in this case i’m certain everyone will agree any reply’s should be posted openly to avoid any further misunderstanding so if you would be good enough to settle the matter i’m sure it would be appreciated by all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 4 hours ago, clangerman said: do me a favour and leave to come on here without so much as a apology is not only offensive in the extreme it is arrogant your organisation is a disgrace to shooting and anyone who takes part it has stained and damaged the entire world of shooting these chaps don’t trust you a inch now as for the public thanks to basc shooters have no credibility whatsoever basc is a disgrace and should be banned from the forum apologies to you chaps but to crawl on here with no apology is disgusting The only apologising required is this child here ^^^^. Grow up please. 8 minutes ago, David BASC said: I will ask my college who looks after member offers about Teague chokes Regarding rifle ammo, yes fully understand the points, and in some calibres there is much work to be done As to asking specific question re communications clangerman - please use this link lead@basc.org.uk As to what cartridges you will shoot with this game season, well its up to you, if you are supplying into the supermarkets you will need in many cases to ensure its not lead you are using. As to the insurance on your gun I can only say that you need to ask the insurer of your guns and other shooting equipment As to patterning, I can only suggest you discuss this with the cartridge suppliers , your local gun dealer or shooting ground. No need to apologise for asking questions, I am sure your concern is genuine, but please understand I am not the Oracle ( a la The Matrix) and do not have the answer to everything that may happen in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 38 minutes ago, mick miller said: David, is there a similar plan in the pipeline for rifles? Will there be any consultation with cartridge or bullet manufacturers beforehand? What will be the argument for the retention of lead for use for quarry? I'm genuinely concerned that, whilst this announcement does not on the surface appear to target rifle shooters, it opens the door to that legislation being tabled in the near future. There are no viable, non-toxic, sub-sonic alternatives for 22lr. The US has had years to develop some (California for example) and has thus far produced two alternatives to lead, neither are subsonic, one doesn't stabilise well beyond 40 yards. There is only ONE alternative for 17 cal. in one weight. It's more than twice the price per bullet as compared to jacketed alternatives. There are a few for larger calibers, but in the case of the 243 the deer legal, 100gr projectile for larger species will not stabilise in a standard factory 1 in 10 twist due to length. There is no alternative whatsoever that will work in vintage/heritage rifles and many lever actioned rifles. I realise, there is no statement made relating to rifles, you must be able to see the problems this move potentially poses to other sectors of the shooting industry. Good post. Coming down the tracks challenges on the shooting of mammals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, David BASC said: I will ask my college who looks after member offers about Teague chokes Regarding rifle ammo, yes fully understand the points, and in some calibres there is much work to be done As to asking specific question re communications clangerman - please use this link lead@basc.org.uk As to what cartridges you will shoot with this game season, well its up to you, if you are supplying into the supermarkets you will need in many cases to ensure its not lead you are using. As to the insurance on your gun I can only say that you need to ask the insurer of your guns and other shooting equipment As to patterning, I can only suggest you discuss this with the cartridge suppliers , your local gun dealer or shooting ground. No need to apologise for asking questions, I am sure your concern is genuine, but please understand I am not the Oracle ( a la The Matrix) and do not have the answer to everything that may happen in the future So basically I won’t be able to shoot this season my cartridge choice 2..1/2 eley impax paper case and fibre wad is lead the land owner requires fibre wad the game dealers require non lead can you recommend a cartridge manufacturer (person) to speak to local shooting ground is no steel shot and local gun shop says ask your shooting organisations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 40 minutes ago, wymberley said: Does anyone happen to know the reason why - that's if there is one, I can think of just one possibility - NTS morphed into non lead? To at least give it a chance before those that would harm shooting sat down and found fault with any shot media we came out with. everything is toxic or harmful to some extent, non LEAD covers the required term neatly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, oowee said: Good post. Coming down the tracks challenges on the shooting of mammals. I put my hands up to losing my **** on this. But it has left me livid. There has to be the utmost care and consideration when making announcements such as this, the repercussions for all involved can/will be massive. The words used and evidence provided has to be examine meticulously lest it provide a perfect 'stick' with which to be beaten with at a later date. At present there are a few alternatives to lead in rifles, but few is the key word and we are a tiny market. There will be no rush to meet new demands, be those volunteered or forced upon us. What worries me is that the organisations, all of them (although I tend to direct my ire at the largest, understandably), will simply roll over rather than fight the corner when it comes to rifle shooting. The 22lr, for example, is the starting point for many a youth wanting to start off shooting affordably and is damn near ubiquitous in the cabinets of pest controllers and recreational shooters up and down the country – hell, our own club has three separate competitions based on this calibre alone! Edited March 9, 2020 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 If your landowner already asks you to shoot fibre only and your game dealer already asks you to only use non lead, what have you been doing up to now? Or s it just this week that your game dealer has been in touch with you about the use of non lead shot? Not knowing where in the UK you are OF Its hard for me to give you more specific local guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, oowee said: The only apologising required is this child here ^^^^. Grow up please. if you could not make personal insults it would be most appreciated just views or opinions as for the subject it is my view a apology is called for and he is more than welcome to challenge my view as several people called for him to give explanations and were ignored thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, lancer425 said: To at least give it a chance before those that would harm shooting sat down and found fault with any shot media we came out with. everything is toxic or harmful to some extent, non LEAD covers the required term neatly. So in effect you're saying that the one major criterion of the 4 deemed necessary for any material to replace lead will never be met. So why not stay with the devil we know one might ask. Actually though, that's the one reason I had in mind albeit I really think that it's not right. My money is on the fact that there's always someone who can't leave well alone - appropriate really as we well know that steel shot is soft iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, David BASC said: If your landowner already asks you to shoot fibre only and your game dealer already asks you to only use non lead, what have you been doing up to now? Or s it just this week that your game dealer has been in touch with you about the use of non lead shot? Not knowing where in the UK you are OF Its hard for me to give you more specific local guidance. Until now papercase fibre wad lead shot cartridge I’m not stupid enough to think the game dealers will be taking lead shot birds from the start of the season so I’ll be hoping for the best and preparing for the worst if the dealer will take lead shot birds fine I will shoot with lead but it’s no good waiting until the 12th August and finding out I have to find a good 2.1/2 steel load and have my chokes bored out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, wymberley said: So in effect you're saying that the one major criterion of the 4 deemed necessary for any material to replace lead will never be met. So why not stay with the devil we know one might ask. Actually though, that's the one reason I had in mind albeit I really think that it's not right. My money is on the fact that there's always someone who can't leave well alone - appropriate really as we well know that steel shot is soft iron. Ban Lead we are in trouble, do not ban Lead we are in trouble you know that as well as me. We are in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Old farrier said: Until now papercase fibre wad lead shot cartridge I’m not stupid enough to think the game dealers will be taking lead shot birds from the start of the season so I’ll be hoping for the best and preparing for the worst if the dealer will take lead shot birds fine I will shoot with lead but it’s no good waiting until the 12th August and finding out I have to find a good 2.1/2 steel load and have my chokes bored out Could you or the estate as appropriate not ask the dealer what he will be accepting in good time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 If you , or anyone else needs help patterning their guns, and if you cant find a shooting ground near enough to use, we do have some comprehensive guidance on this and how you can DIY on land you have access to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Until now papercase fibre wad lead shot cartridge I’m not stupid enough to think the game dealers will be taking lead shot birds from the start of the season so I’ll be hoping for the best and preparing for the worst if the dealer will take lead shot birds fine I will shoot with lead but it’s no good waiting until the 12th August and finding out I have to find a good 2.1/2 steel load and have my chokes bored out Leave your chokes alone is my advice. i ruined good guns opening chokes up in the early days of Non Lead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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