Lead ban & BASC

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

why has BASC now done a U turn after all the arguments against a ban on lead,lead has always been toxic!

 

How have they done a U turn exactly? They made a suggestion. their excellent defence of lead is as good now as it has ever been.

 this is not about defending Lead its about moving away from it voluntarily. Giving cartridge firms and individual shooters time to  develop and move on from Lead.

[rbrowning2]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The ducks from shoots into game dealers year on year weree significant in their Lead content to raise concern. And yet even when warned compliance was still unacceptable. 

So simple game dealer reports it to the police with the identity of the shoot concerned and police revoke certificates for all who shot that day. The message would soon get through then. 

4 minutes ago, greylag said:

Move with the times.I argued for lead for years but have accepted that it has had its day and as a wildfowler have taken the alternatives to heart.

With or without biodegradable wads?

 

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said:

So simple game dealer reports it to the police with the identity of the shoot concerned and police revoke certificates for all who shot that day. The message would soon get through then. 

No not enough clear evidence for a conviction, CPS would not go near it.

Not been a single conviction AFAIAA, for lead use in waterfowl in 20 years.

[rbrowning2]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

No not enough clear evidence for a conviction, CPS would not go near it.

Not been a single conviction AFAIAA, for lead use in waterfowl in 20 years.

The police do not need a conviction to revoke a certificate. Fit and proper person which clearly somebody using using lead when steel should be used is not.

 

[clangerman]

16 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

why has BASC now done a U turn after all the arguments against a ban on lead,lead has always been toxic!

 

MONEY! they want to create a demand for steel shot game but forgot to ask joe public first so we will still have the same stinky piles of unwanted game we have every season 

[andrewluke]

30 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The ducks from shoots into game dealers year on year weree significant in their Lead content to raise concern. And yet even when warned compliance was still unacceptable. 

but you said "nobody obeyed the lead ban on Ducks"

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

but you said "nobody obeyed the lead ban on Ducks"

Words is wurds , we are into Contexts here . WE!  "not every last one of us" Let the side down by being out of compliance breaking the law.

[greylag]

37 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

So simple game dealer reports it to the police with the identity of the shoot concerned and police revoke certificates for all who shot that day. The message would soon get through then. 

With or without biodegradable wads?

 

 

[lancer425]

22 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The police do not need a conviction to revoke a certificate. Fit and proper person which clearly somebody using using lead when steel should be used is not.

 

You can argue details here all you want, its not the way forward . its just NOT.

There would have been a shed load of convictions on this already if this was ever going to be a THING.

[greylag]

Biodegradable wads are available now and with the R,D departments of the cartridge manufacturers working toward other alternatives we can all be seen to be doing the right thing.

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, greylag said:

Biodegradable wads are available now and with the R,D departments of the cartridge manufacturers working toward other alternatives we can all be seen to be doing the right thing.

Indeed and the right think for me is lead shot, until biodegradable wads are available  in 28ga. 

[rbrowning2]

8 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

You can argue details here all you want, its not the way forward . its just NOT.

There would have been a shed load of convictions on this already if this was ever going to be a THING.

Your moaning that people are not obeying the law and then do not agree with the law being applied.

its needs handling like the campaign for drink driving, become sociably unacceptable and zero tolerance.

 

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, greylag said:

Biodegradable wads are available now and with the R,D departments of the cartridge manufacturers working toward other alternatives we can all be seen to be doing the right thing.

Anything they do achieve we can rest assured if uk manufacturers we will pay 5 times what it cost them. I think any  New USA trade deals will perhaps be a good place for inovation, as long as we do not get a supper greedy importer we could get some practical factory ammo, the upland non tox/ bio move is underway over there and a big market, dove loads too.

[8 shot]

5 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Indeed and the right think for me is lead shot, until biodegradable wads are available  in 28ga. 

I don’t think there will be much for a 28ga, probably only bithmuth by all accounts.I know of a couple of lads with 28s who have been in contact with two or three cartridge manufacturers and were told, nothing in steel in the 5 years if at all and definitely bithmuth only for 410s 😢

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said:

Your moaning that people are not obeying the law and then do not agree with the law being applied.

its needs handling like the campaign for drink driving, become sociably unacceptable and zero tolerance.

 

I am not arguing anything, bring it on for me  i do not care at all i never break the law.  But this is not the way forward, this SUGGESTION and spread over five years, is a nice gentle run up to any future legislation. Clinging to the rim is stupid and just pointless stubbornness on the part of a few who do not like change.  Non tox is here we need to embrace it run with it in a nice steady transition not have it forced upon us which is the less favourable option.

This fight is about WADS not shot types, it really is.

I have done three days with card cups and sieving and i can see a little light at the end  of the tunnel now without any help whatsoever from  the cartridge firms.

 

12 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

I don’t think there will be much for a 28ga, probably only bithmuth by all accounts.I know of a couple of lads with 28s who have been in contact with two or three cartridge manufacturers and were told, nothing in steel in the 5 years if at all and definitely bithmuth only for 410s 😢

Winchester will be moving to fibre cup from plas in their 3.8oz steel at some point in the next few years.

[8 shot]

14 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Winchester will be moving to fibre cup from plas in their 3.8oz steel at some point in the next few years.

Umm...at what price, Winchester used to be my cartridge of choice, Rangers in 410 and 20, Winners, AA100, GB and westerns in 12s all round excellent cartridges. Stop coming here I believe for money reasons. 

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Umm...at what price, Winchester used to be my cartridge of choice, Rangers in 410 and 20, Winners, AA100, GB and westerns in 12s all round excellent cartridges. Stop coming here I believe for money reasons. 

We could well get more favourable trade deals soon from the states, things could get better with regards price.   The sad fact is our firms could produce steel ammo just as good as winchester, but simply have no intentions of doing it.

[McSpredder]

19 hours ago, Tedward said:

Just research the history of the panel members of the Oxford Lead Symposium.

Good advice.   When considering those Symposium papers, or anything described as a “scientific” report, it is worth asking yourself a few simple questions:

1. Are the authors qualified and/or experienced in the topic, or might they just be people who acquired a science degree years ago in some completely different subject and have jumped onto a popular band-wagon?
2. Does the paper include new information?   Scientists gain promotion or win research contracts by publishing lots of papers, and many of them play the numbers game, presenting the same information time and time again on the conference circuit or in several different journals or textbooks.
3. Have the authors indulged in a lot of self-citation, repeatedly quoting their own previous publications?   “Citation count” is another aid to career advancement for scientists.
4. Have they actually measured anything, or have they simply manipulated others peoples’ data?
5. Are the experimental methods and/or calculation procedures fully described, so that another person could check the results?
6. Where a paper includes mathematical models, have these ever been validated against real-world data?
7. Have the authors taken adequate account of “common knowledge”?   Academics are advised to begin a research project by reviewing recent journal papers, and tend to assume that no worthwhile knowledge exists unless it was published in a scientific journal.
8. Where results are said to be statistically significant, are they actually important?   If I gave you one penny, there is not the slightest doubt that I would be poorer and you would be richer, but in truth it would make no real difference to either of us.

Finally, here are two things that have been said about our esteemed academic institutions (sorry I cannot remember where they originated):

• Universities were once populated by people in search of the truth, but are now populated by people in search of funding.
• University is a place where naked ambition stalks behind thickets of useless research.

[6.5x55SE]

28 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

We could well get more favourable trade deals soon from the states, things could get better with regards price.   The sad fact is our firms could produce steel ammo just as good as winchester, but simply have no intentions of doing it.

I truly hope so. Myself as you have probably done search the USA market for non toxic shot .410 through 12ga Steel hevi- shot bismuth HW13 - 15 and now 18 factory loaded and the prices are in my opinion cheap. The Bio wad situation seems to moving fast over there again just my opinion both cartridge and wads available to the UK is terrible insulting infact and if/when we do get better options i bet uk shooter's will get there Bottoms ripped out as usual.

[Scully]

3 hours ago, pete1dart said:

My biggest gripe about all this, is that I am not a member of any shooting organisation, neither does any of my shot game go into a game dealers. Pigeon, pheasant, partridge and goose all come home with me and get put into my freezer for my family’s own consumption.

 

why should the big organisations think they can dictate to me what I do with my bounty? I’ll use steel if I need too bit I would much rather use lead. It doesn’t effect any one apart from me. Iv been eating game for over 30 years and haven’t had any health problems from it. 
 

I will keep using lead and plastic wads as I prefer them too and the farmers I shoot for don’t give a monkeys what I use as long as I do a job for them when vermin shooting. 
 

so basc who claim to be the voice of shooting don’t speak for me so I will carry on doing what I do.

Then I’m not really sure you have a gripe. There is a five year voluntary phase out of lead; after that? Is it going to be banned? If it isn’t banned but simply made unavailable, then simply stockpile lead until you think you have enough to see you through, as I’m sure many will do. If lead isn’t banned then you’re ok to carry on shooting grouse etc with it. 🙂
I’ve absolutely no doubt that even if it is banned there will be those who continue to use it on game for their own consumption. After all, who’s going to know? 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

So simple game dealer reports it to the police with the identity of the shoot concerned and police revoke certificates for all who shot that day. The message would soon get through then. 

 

About fifteen years too late I’m afraid; that bridge has already been crossed. Dealers could possibly still sell them back then as no one complained, but I’m assuming they are now, as ( according to our shooting orgs ) people will not buy lead shot game. 
We are where we are. 

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

The police do not need a conviction to revoke a certificate. Fit and proper person which clearly somebody using using lead when steel should be used is not.

 

Eh? Seriously? How on earth are police going to discover which individual was using lead instead of steel unless they were there at the time? Please, think it through. 

[enfieldspares]

It is amazing the guff that has been written on here about how BASC has somehow prevented a total ban on lead shot being enacted imminently by is call for a voluntary lead ban. Absolute guff. This is nothing more nor less than an attempt to stop a ban on released game by arguing that even though the "big bag" boys saturate their environment with put down birds that it is all justified as what they sell is sold for food.

This is below is what New Zealand does:

https://fishandgame.org.nz/game-bird-hunting-in-new-zealand/hunting-regulations/non-toxic-shot-regulations/

 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, clangerman said:

MONEY! they want to create a demand for steel shot game but forgot to ask joe public first so we will still have the same stinky piles of unwanted game we have every season 

Link please to the ‘stinky piles of unwanted game we have every season.’ Thanks. 

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Indeed and the right think for me is lead shot, until biodegradable wads are available  in 28ga. 

Then you’re good to go; neither lead shot nor plastic wads have been banned. 👍

[clangerman]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

Link please to the ‘stinky piles of unwanted game we have every season.’ Thanks. 

Then you’re good to go; neither lead shot nor plastic wads have been banned. 👍

a old boy who shoots with me picks up unwanted birds and processes them to sell on i personally seen his truck rammed with birds come this season i will definitely be taking pics unfortunately for those who think he won’t have piles of birds 

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

a old boy who shoots with me picks up unwanted birds and processes them to sell on i personally seen his truck rammed with birds come this season i will definitely be taking pics unfortunately for those who think he won’t have piles of birds 

So he processes unwanted birds.  I asked for a link to the ‘stinky piles of unwanted game we have every season’? Can you provide one?