Lead ban & BASC

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Then start a poll. I'm quite sure that given the vote most shooters would vote against the banning of lead; I know I would. I just want you to explain why, if shooters voted overwhelmingly against a lead shot ban, that would stop it happening, as you claim it would. You said shooters wouldn't let it happen, so please explain how they could stop it. 

sorry misunderstood you your right they can’t stop it but with a vote they can give a honest opinion without any taking any flack i’m positive it would show they didn’t want a ban 

[Salopian]

I would like to ask a question or two please.

What is the effect of steelshot on grassland , meadows , and trees, is steelshot affected by chemicals used in agriculture ?

Finally has anyone else noted the lack of grassland at steelstockholders, shipyards, and steelworks ?

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, clangerman said:

sorry misunderstood you your right they can’t stop it but with a vote they can give a honest opinion without any taking any flack i’m positive it would show they didn’t want a ban 

No need to apologise. If you want all the shooters on PW to vote then start a poll. Personally I would vote to keep lead, but it doesn't matter what I want, or you, or anyone else, but that isn't what this is all about is it? 

If you don't want to stop using lead, then don't. It really is that simple, why can't you understand that? 

[David BASC]

Arguing against steel shot is totally counterproductive.

Evidently many on here have not seen,read or understood the ECHA reports that re very likely to trigger international legislation that will in all likelihood ban lead shot - take a look for yourself.

Meanwhile, we see some stating a 'lets show how bad steel shot is' as a way of defending lead shot, sorry guys but that  will not work! But worst of all you now start attacking  the lowest cost non lead alternative, do you want to see steel shot prohibited? 

A poll on here will not prove who is right! A poll simply reflects opinion. Nor will a poll show how shooters would have prevented any of this, again I say look at the evidence, look at the ECHA reports etc as clearly pointed out within the FAQ section of the lead page on the BASC and other organisations web sites

[lancer425]

12 minutes ago, Salopian said:

I would like to ask a question or two please.

What is the effect of steelshot on grassland , meadows , and trees, is steelshot affected by chemicals used in agriculture ?

Finally has anyone else noted the lack of grassland at steelstockholders, shipyards, and steelworks ?

Google Grassland research into the use of steel shot in wetlands for waterfowl hunting. its mid 1970s. and was inconclusive, we found  this in 1998 got no where after blair signed up 1999 we were screwed .

Edited March 19, 2020 by lancer425

[8 shot]

2 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Arguing against steel shot is totally counterproductive.

Evidently many on here have not seen,read or understood the ECHA reports that re very likely to trigger international legislation that will in all likelihood ban lead shot - take a look for yourself.

Meanwhile, we see some stating a 'lets show how bad steel shot is' as a way of defending lead shot, sorry guys but that  will not work! But worst of all you now start attacking  the lowest cost non lead alternative, do you want to see steel shot prohibited? 

A poll on here will not prove who is right! A poll simply reflects opinion. Nor will a poll show how shooters would have prevented any of this, again I say look at the evidence, look at the ECHA reports etc as clearly pointed out within the FAQ section of the lead page on the BASC and other organisations web sites

So it will be banned then in 5 years time ? Best pop my guns in for multi choking now before the world and his wife beat me to it and I've a 6 year waiting time 

[andrewluke]

5 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Arguing against steel shot is totally counterproductive.

Evidently many on here have not seen,read or understood the ECHA reports that re very likely to trigger international legislation that will in all likelihood ban lead shot - take a look for yourself.

Meanwhile, we see some stating a 'lets show how bad steel shot is' as a way of defending lead shot, sorry guys but that  will not work! But worst of all you now start attacking  the lowest cost non lead alternative, do you want to see steel shot prohibited? 

A poll on here will not prove who is right! A poll simply reflects opinion. Nor will a poll show how shooters would have prevented any of this, again I say look at the evidence, look at the ECHA reports etc as clearly pointed out within the FAQ section of the lead page on the BASC and other organisations web sites

you are saying now what the anti lead shot groups were saying 5yrs ago but you were defending lead then

[clangerman]

5 minutes ago, Scully said:

No need to apologise. If you want all the shooters on PW to vote then start a poll. Personally I would vote to keep lead, but it doesn't matter what I want, or you, or anyone else, but that isn't what this is all about is it? 

If you don't want to stop using lead, then don't. It really is that simple, why can't you understand that? 

i’m using it slowly it’s not about keeping lead that’s done it’s about finding out true opinions now i just seen some are not keen on finding that out definitely going to think about starting a poll 

[wymberley]

48 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

You are just picking parts  of a post, not looking it its whole context makes giving the direct answers so constantly demand of people on any subject  on these boards very difficult to answer . But hey ho.

1. Lead has  good ballistic properties ,  its easy to make cheap and it works its well known.

Lead has been the mainstay of ballistics forever. BUT as i originally stated we are not here  to discuss leads merits.

Lead is toxic. that is not a moot point.

2. is taken from my above post >>>>And now we are faced with situations in Europe that are not good for our sport. I certainly do not have any idea what the out come of all this will ultimately be. But i believe the Orgs suggestion is a shrewd and valid one.   I am not 100% in agreement with it , but i can see why they suggested this now. <<<< .you had the answer all the time.

3. if the orgs suggestion is good damage prevention  strategy  its all that and more. Its now unlikely but i suppose not impossible to rush through any Lead ban.  

4. we now face exactly the same challenges we did when the orgs suggested this. Nothing has changed we have five years where we can make a smooth transition from steel. and yet still get to fight any final details at the other end. what is not to like about this. its not got any down sides in this political climate we are securing time. that is a good thing.

5. in that case i am guilty. I think we have the same chance then as we ever had, and we got five years to get ready. how is that delusional.?

6. PAH!

To finish in the same vein - the drilling's started:

 

5.same chance then + same  chance ever = no chance

6. QED

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Arguing against steel shot is totally counterproductive.

Evidently many on here have not seen,read or understood the ECHA reports that re very likely to trigger international legislation that will in all likelihood ban lead shot - take a look for yourself.

Meanwhile, we see some stating a 'lets show how bad steel shot is' as a way of defending lead shot, sorry guys but that  will not work! But worst of all you now start attacking  the lowest cost non lead alternative, do you want to see steel shot prohibited? 

A poll on here will not prove who is right! A poll simply reflects opinion. Nor will a poll show how shooters would have prevented any of this, again I say look at the evidence, look at the ECHA reports etc as clearly pointed out within the FAQ section of the lead page on the BASC and other organisations web sites

So it's not a 'phase out' then, voluntary or otherwise? Which is it, a voluntary phase out or an impending ban? So the cartridge manufacturers have five years to develop 'affordable and effective' substitutes for all bores and all lengths? Where did the figure of five years come from? If ECHA ban lead shot, what timescale is likely to be the result for it to be implemented? What happens if an effective and affordable replacement for a non plastic wad cannot be developed for ALL bores and ALL length of cartridge within that five years? 

[Scully]

12 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i’m using it slowly it’s not about keeping lead that’s done it’s about finding out true opinions now i just seen some are not keen on finding that out definitely going to think about starting a poll 

You're using what slowly? Lead? Why? I'm not, I'm stockpiling the stuff! 

If you want to gauge opinions then start a poll.....for whatever good it'll do. 

[8 shot]

I wonder if the orgs are trying to take some of the credit for what looks like an impending ban. And two of the cartridge manufacturers told me 28g and 410 will be bismuth only 

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

You're using what slowly? Lead? Why? I'm not, I'm stockpiling the stuff! 

If you want to gauge opinions then start a poll.....for whatever good it'll do. 

sorry meant i’m using the steel slowly the poll won’t give a honest opinion unless anonymous which it’s not unfortunately 

[andrewluke]

DavidBASC,could ECHA say lead shot is toxic so can ban straight away or perhaps in 1year,2years,3years or is lead definately safe for at least 5yrs??

[Scully]

7 minutes ago, clangerman said:

sorry meant i’m using the steel slowly the poll won’t give a honest opinion unless anonymous which it’s not unfortunately 

I'm not really sure why you think people wouldn't give an honest reply, anonymous or not. What is the worst that could happen? Start a poll and see. 

[clangerman]

Just now, Scully said:

I'm not really sure why you think people wouldn't give an honest reply, anonymous or not. What is the worst that could happen? Start a poll and see. 

ones already running the same people who shout some of us down will vote result is probably a forgone conclusion that’s why government voting is done in private waste of time 

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, clangerman said:

ones already running the same people who shout some of us down will vote result is probably a forgone conclusion that’s why government voting is done in private waste of time 

Where is a poll running? On PW? 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Scully

[David BASC]

Yes its a voluntary phase out of lead and single use plastics , thus showing that shooting can self regulate.

What ECHA / European Commission do next is moot, but as I say if you look at what ECHA has produced recently and the direction the EC have given... but the fact the UK is looking to self regulate in this regard may well buy us time.

As I have said, what additional cartridges are available in non lead over the next 5 years will depend entirely on what the cartridge manufacturers can deliver, and I am sure they will focus on market demand. I think non lead is currently available in 10, 12, 20, 16 and 28 and I guess they have these in production because there is sufficient demand in the UK. What others are available outside the UK  I don't know, but I guess it will be easy enough to find out?

As I have said, times are changing, and if we want shooting to thrive and be sustainable then we need to change too, simple as that.

[clangerman]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

Where is a poll running? On PW? 

yes a poll is running on general shooting 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Where is a poll running? On PW? 

Here;

 

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Here;

 

Yeah, I’ve seen that; it’s just another thread, not a poll. Can we no longer create polls on PW? 

[clangerman]

as i’m no good with tech does anyone know if a private form of having a poll is allowed or possible on the forum? 

[Velocette]

19 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Yes its a voluntary phase out of lead and single use plastics , thus showing that shooting can self regulate.

 

Am I missing something here,,,,surely the largest single use plastic is the cartridge case. Will these be banned too ?

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Yes its a voluntary phase out of lead and single use plastics , thus showing that shooting can self regulate.

What ECHA / European Commission do next is moot, but as I say if you look at what ECHA has produced recently and the direction the EC have given... but the fact the UK is looking to self regulate in this regard may well buy us time.

As I have said, what additional cartridges are available in non lead over the next 5 years will depend entirely on what the cartridge manufacturers can deliver, and I am sure they will focus on market demand. I think non lead is currently available in 10, 12, 20, 16 and 28 and I guess they have these in production because there is sufficient demand in the UK. What others are available outside the UK  I don't know, but I guess it will be easy enough to find out?

As I have said, times are changing, and if we want shooting to thrive and be sustainable then we need to change too, simple as that.

Thanks. You’ve only answered one of my questions, but that’s better than nothing; the rest consists of things I’m already aware of, but much of it regarding what the manufacturers are capable of seems rather vague....not an ideal situation on which to base policy and a huge shift in the way we shoot steel through non steel proofed barrels with a non plastic wad. All the bores you mentioned seem promising at first sight, until you factor in you are calling for a non plastic wad also. 

So if the demand for lead shot continues, ( I certainly don’t intend to stop buying it ) and there is no increase in the uptake in sales for steel ( and I can’t see why there would be without a non plastic wad which protects non steel proofed barrels ) and cartridge manufacturers keep making lead shot to cater for demand, then what? What do you propose to do then? 
Bear in mind there is nothing to prevent game shooters from using trap cartridges to shoot game...not all game is headed for commercial use. 

[enfieldspares]

Quote

Lead on a roof is hardly comparable to lead shot, same material yes but in a different form and in a totally different environment. Birds do not ingest lead flashing or lead pipes do they? 

That's true that DAVID BASC.

Absolutely true. Just the same as birds don't ingest lead fired by sportsmen and sportswomen fired at clay pigeons whereas, of course, they do ingest lead fired by sportsmen and sportswomen fired over coverts from which pheasants are being driven.

Or is it this? That one lead sort of lead pellet...that in a cartridge for trap shooting clay pigeons is OK. But an other sort of lead pellet...that in a cartridge for roost shooting wood pigeons isn't OK.

OK. I think I've got it now. Thank you. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by enfieldspares