Lead ban & BASC

[Stimo22]

Yes we use agri-cycle to recycle ours the charges are on the website as are the locations. Also Laporte will collect when they deliver clays ,which is the system most large clubs use. 

[lancer425]

Brass cases are  £1and can be reused . Not for every gun."SA/ Pump"  but most O/Us and SxSs etc are fine on brass cases. Its a good way of loading .410 on a low budget too. .

[Salopian]

In the current edition of The Field magazine ( May 2020) there is an excellant article on page 7 written by Jonathan Young , also in the letters pages there are numerous well written letters regard the Lead debate including a magnificent letter from Gun Maker Tony Kennedy .

I have recently researched ' The effects of soft iron consumption by Humans ' ( eating Game shot with steel shot) .

Do youngsters and the future wildfowlers REALLY wish to die of pancreatic cancer or liver disease ?

Just a thought !

Obviously this may require a large consumption of poisoned meat to be fatal , but so does Lead shot meat , and as I have always maintained,

" Give me something as economic and efficient as lead shot but not as harmful to humans and the environment and I will gladly use it ."

Edited April 18, 2020 by Salopian

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, Salopian said:

In the current edition of The Field magazine ( May 2020) there is an excellant article on page 7 written by Jonathan Young , also in the letters pages there are numerous well written letters regard the Lead debate including a magnificent letter from Gun Maker Tony Kennedy .

I have recently researched ' The effects of soft iron consumption by Humans ' ( eating Game shot with steel shot) .

Do youngsters and the future wildfowlers REALLY wish to die of pancreatic cancer or liver disease ?

Just a thought !

Obviously this may require a large consumption of poisoned meat to be fatal , but so does Lead shot meat , and as I have always maintained,

" Give me something as economic and efficient as lead shot but not as harmful to humans and the environment and I will gladly use it ."

The  plating of   steel / shot ammo now is to address the oxidisation issue, and the  plating is slow to erode in stomach acids so will be long gone out of the human body when in any position to harm its host. Very early 2000s. its come on a lot since then states and many re loaders like the plated steel shot for many reasons that just one of them.

[Salopian]

Lancer ,

 Are you now saying that all cartridge manufacturers are using plated shot , and that steel shot due to its plating is not harmful if ingested ?

Perhaps anyone who is interested in the Lead shot alternatives debate may wish to research the toxicity of soft iron , tungsten matrix , zinc , tin , copper , bismuth shot and then come back with a viable economic alternative to lead shot .

I do agree that Lead does have its faults , but until an economic , efficient alternative is available I personally would like to continue to use lead shot.

[andrewluke]

17 minutes ago, Salopian said:

Lancer ,

 Are you now saying that all cartridge manufacturers are using plated shot , and that steel shot due to its plating is not harmful if ingested ?

Perhaps anyone who is interested in the Lead shot alternatives debate may wish to research the toxicity of soft iron , tungsten matrix , zinc , tin , copper , bismuth shot and then come back with a viable economic alternative to lead shot .

I do agree that Lead does have its faults , but until an economic , efficient alternative is available I personally would like to continue to use lead shot.

this is what BASC was saying up until recently,now lead has got to go full stop??

[mossy835]

 wellim useing lead till the end.

[Salopian]

Interestingly  (for me at least) I was on a forum called  shootingsportsman.com  there is a debate on there about British shooting organisations calling for the phasing out of Lead .

Most of the contributors feel very sorry for British shotgunners having to give up the only usable shot material !

General opinion seemed to be that the crazy Californian officials can keep their draconian laws and cuddle their Bald Eagles , but the majority will continue to use Lead for bird hunting.

One or two intimated that Tom Roster was making a very good living promoting steel shot and buying and reading his articles.

Let us keep using Lead shot until one of these organisations come up with irrefutable evidence that Lead is as harmful as their unsubstantiated claims make out . 

[lancer425]

On 19/04/2020 at 19:06, Salopian said:

Lancer ,

 Are you now saying that all cartridge manufacturers are using plated shot , and that steel shot due to its plating is not harmful if ingested ?

Perhaps anyone who is interested in the Lead shot alternatives debate may wish to research the toxicity of soft iron , tungsten matrix , zinc , tin , copper , bismuth shot and then come back with a viable economic alternative to lead shot .

I do agree that Lead does have its faults , but until an economic , efficient alternative is available I personally would like to continue to use lead shot.

As i said above plating steel or tungsten because its hard can prevent any potential harmful effects  from ingestion in the human body , it is also to prevent oxidisation and it helps pattern densities in some  loads . Plating lead is less effective at preventing Lead ingress in the human body because its mailable and it often cracks or ruptures in the internal ballistics process.

Heavy coatings of hard nickel or zink can help prevent any exposure of the lead due to bore contact "chamber/ forcing cone and choke. as well as contact pairing are helped by the plating too. but the ingestion aspect with lead is less effective. Copper is toxic so although plating steel or even lead with copper is of some use copper plated lead is not of any human health benefit,.

In the 70s and 80s the Italians did a lot with plated lead various ammo makers, and nickel was harder and easier to put a thicker coat on, more microns of plating costs more money, High antamony shot held up better and when platted did pattern better than any lead before, but the high antamony content and the lighter heavier plating did reduce the density over the pellet displacement  SG  so not all good news .

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, Salopian said:

Interestingly  (for me at least) I was on a forum called  shootingsportsman.com  there is a debate on there about British shooting organisations calling for the phasing out of Lead .

Most of the contributors feel very sorry for British shotgunners having to give up the only usable shot material !

General opinion seemed to be that the crazy Californian officials can keep their draconian laws and cuddle their Bald Eagles , but the majority will continue to use Lead for bird hunting.

One or two intimated that Tom Roster was making a very good living promoting steel shot and buying and reading his articles.

Let us keep using Lead shot until one of these organisations come up with irrefutable evidence that Lead is as harmful as their unsubstantiated claims make out . 

Seen that in the states, but its going to be in there before here. Environment is king over there. always been like this. Look at lead and the muscle cars in the 70s. Lead in ammo is going. its gone on upland on public ground and doves are going non tox or have already gone in some areas states.

[Salopian]

Lancer ,

 Thank you  for your comments ,

Here is a recent p

The British government did not initiate the expansion of the ban on lead.  A Brit shooting organization is espousing that phase out of lead.

A fundamental underpinning of that decision is the fact that wild game is regularly marketed after shoots in the U.K. and the presence of lead shot is a EU health hazard.  This is not an issue in the US as we do not market wild game.   Therefore the economic pressure to make game meat marketable is not a factor here.

That does not mean some anti gun organization won’t create expansive threat theoretical models as they have in California, but we are some distance from that in all 50 states.  Still we need to be wary of over reactions in regulation that can seriously impact the use of vintage guns and drive up the expense of shooting with non-tox Ammo cost.

The decline in participation in shooting sports is the long term greatest threat to our sport.

With regard to your earlier post on plating you do seem to missout some of the important information .

Zinc is extremely toxic . Tungsten is proven to be carconogenic , Tungsten Matrix is Tungsten bonded with polymers and plasticisers Steel /Iron burns off vegitation and allied with numerous readily used farming chemicals is extremely toxic and harmful to vegitation and wildlife . BUT the biggest factor that no one seems to be taking into consideration is the very low incidence of Lead being harmful /fatal to mankind . If it aint broke don't fix it . 

 

[chip000]

On 23/02/2020 at 19:15, PeterHenry said:

Not a great deal of use if you use a 2 1/2" chambered gun though

But they could easily be. The biomass used to make compostable plastic bags for your food waste and used by Eley to make Eco-Wad cartridges could be used across the board, then the price would tumble. As for lead, well that’s going the same way as coal already has has and diesel is about to. 
I’ve  got two lovely old English SBS guns but they will become ornaments like my Tube TV and my hugely expensive 80’s mobile phones. Sad but it’s the way life goes. The cartridge industry should surely be able to adapt in 5 yrs. 

[rbrowning2]

19 minutes ago, chip000 said:

But they could easily be. The biomass used to make compostable plastic bags for your food waste and used by Eley to make Eco-Wad cartridges could be used across the board, then the price would tumble. As for lead, well that’s going the same way as coal already has has and diesel is about to. 
I’ve  got two lovely old English SBS guns but they will become ornaments like my Tube TV and my hugely expensive 80’s mobile phones. Sad but it’s the way life goes. The cartridge industry should surely be able to adapt in 5 yrs. 

If only life was that simple, Eley don’t make the plastic Eco-wads they are made in Spain by a Spanish company and they are not made from any biomass used to make compostable plastic bags.
The Spanish manufacture, probably given we are no longer part of the EU, may not give a monkey about what the UK may or may not be doing, especially if they can sell all they make to cartridge manufactures in the EU.

  

 

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, Salopian said:

Lancer ,

 Thank you  for your comments ,

Here is a recent p

The British government did not initiate the expansion of the ban on lead.  A Brit shooting organization is espousing that phase out of lead.

A fundamental underpinning of that decision is the fact that wild game is regularly marketed after shoots in the U.K. and the presence of lead shot is a EU health hazard.  This is not an issue in the US as we do not market wild game.   Therefore the economic pressure to make game meat marketable is not a factor here.

That does not mean some anti gun organization won’t create expansive threat theoretical models as they have in California, but we are some distance from that in all 50 states.  Still we need to be wary of over reactions in regulation that can seriously impact the use of vintage guns and drive up the expense of shooting with non-tox Ammo cost.

The decline in participation in shooting sports is the long term greatest threat to our sport.

With regard to your earlier post on plating you do seem to missout some of the important information .

Zinc is extremely toxic . Tungsten is proven to be carconogenic , Tungsten Matrix is Tungsten bonded with polymers and plasticisers Steel /Iron burns off vegitation and allied with numerous readily used farming chemicals is extremely toxic and harmful to vegitation and wildlife . BUT the biggest factor that no one seems to be taking into consideration is the very low incidence of Lead being harmful /fatal to mankind . If it aint broke don't fix it . 

 

Non tox on doves and upland in some states, and i think more than just california. Public ground in quite a few states IIRIC.

[chip000]

23 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

If only life was that simple, Eley don’t make the plastic Eco-wads they are made in Spain by a Spanish company and they are not made from any biomass used to make compostable plastic bags.
The Spanish manufacture, probably given we are no longer part of the EU, may not give a monkey about what the UK may or may not be doing, especially if they can sell all they make to cartridge manufactures in the EU.

  

 

I’ll happily defer to your knowledge on the wads but at the risk of re-opening the EU/UK debate, if UK plc, can’t replicate or find a suitable biodegradeable material in 5 years  to match something already in production in Spain, we as a country are in a whole world of trouble. 
 

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, chip000 said:

I’ll happily defer to your knowledge on the wads but at the risk of re-opening the EU/UK debate, if UK plc, can’t replicate or find a suitable biodegradeable material in 5 years  to match something already in production in Spain, we as a country are in a whole world of trouble. 
 

Think that quest has been the holy grail for a long time, who can remember a several years back the UK shooting magazines reporting on biodegradable wads going to be made from starch, never happened, because it was not that easy.

We are down to four years as this year is done for with corvid19 and none of the uk cartridge manufactures have the chemists, production engineers or money required to invent a new material and production tooling/machines.
You can bet the Spanish company has their product protected by patients and intellectual property laws.

Which is why the UK cartridge manufactures issued the statement saying it was impossible.

The material will only come about from other drivers within other industries as such initiatives require massive investment and time, neither of which the UK or even the EU cartridge component manufactures have.  
The packaging industry must be one such possibly that could eventually deliver the material required, but if it existed then it would be in use now, given the focus on one use plastic waste.
The EU will see this as a local UK issue of their own making, the wads Eley are using have been around for many years, the result of millions of euros EU grants, yet the industry has all but totally ignored them until now, so little incentive to even invest in the concept within the shooting industry.

But time will tell.

 

[Salopian]

A friend has developed a water soluble wad and taken it to Eley , Hull ,Gamebore and BASC none have shown any real interest as the cartridge manufacturers all said they had alternatives in the pipeline .

With regard to alternative shot types , what happened to Hevi-shot? 

[6.5x55SE]

29 minutes ago, Salopian said:

A friend has developed a water soluble wad and taken it to Eley , Hull ,Gamebore and BASC none have shown any real interest as the cartridge manufacturers all said they had alternatives in the pipeline .

With regard to alternative shot types , what happened to Hevi-shot? 

Typical uk shooter's getting stuffed again. I was a fibreglass laminater and mould/pattern maker for a while speaking to my father recently about plastic wads being moulded just my opinion use same moulds/toolings replace plastic solutions with PVA job done cartridge case's just need sealing as Winchester used to do Even packages with what looks like foam nuggets are fully dissolved in seconds when put in water 

[Salopian]

Correct , PVA or a derivative could be the way forward .

Anglers use PVA bait swim feeders so they must be economical to produce . I would have thought costs would not be too different from producing plaswads.

But with regard to this thread ( banning lead shot ) I really would advise all of you and the shooting organisations  to read about the toxicity of the alternative materials to Lead shot and to correctly quantify the REAL fatalities that have been caused by ingesting lead pellets .

 

[rbrowning2]

On 29/04/2020 at 12:31, 6.5x55SE said:

Typical uk shooter's getting stuffed again. I was a fibreglass laminater and mould/pattern maker for a while speaking to my father recently about plastic wads being moulded just my opinion use same moulds/toolings replace plastic solutions with PVA job done cartridge case's just need sealing as Winchester used to do Even packages with what looks like foam nuggets are fully dissolved in seconds when put in water 

The Spanish wads being used by Eley and others are made from PVA and yes the cartridge cases are being sealed by melting the petals together like Winchester used to do.  The wads are very hygroscopic so if this was not done the cartridge shelf life would be very short.

To ensure maximum shelf life the Eley and Rio cartridge as far as I know are being loaded in Spain given its low humidity.

interesting YouTube video regarding the wads note the date March 2013

Armusa Green Shoot - Shooting without a trace

6,194 views

•19 Mar 2013

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by rbrowning2

[Salopian]

SO ! Fully dissolvable plastic type wads available in 2013 , but it takes two companies seven years to corner the market ?

We have needed to find an economical and similar alternative to lead shot for more than twenty years , the cartridge manufacturers can be accused of being lax in their uptake and research and development, but as soon as BASC highlight this issue we all have to jump !

How much financially have BASC contributed to finding an alternative to lead shot and plastic wads ?

[stagboy]

Why are certain UK-based cartridge makers putting out a begging bowl? What have they been doing with their profits over last 20 years since lead became an issue? Why are they claiming to have been caught on the hop by the prospect of changing from lead and single use plastic within the next five years?   

 

Here are two parts of the strategic statement accompanying Gamebore's last report and accounts, from Companies House  (emphasis in bold by me): 

 

"The profit for the year after taxation amounted to £1,865,755 (2017 - £1,866,414). The company's net current assets position is £9,954,759 and the net balance sheet total remains strong at £12,624,076."

 

"The company operates in the shotgun cartridge and lead shot industry and supplies the worldwide market. The principal risks are: 1. Global market restrictions on gun laws 2. Changes in legislation regarding our current products containing lead 3. Changes in exchange rates 4. Competitive pressure 5. Brexit uncertainty for importing and exporting. The company has strategies to manage these risks, and the directors are actively investing in new machinery and technology. Gamebore has been at the forefront for the past 25 years in alternative non-toxic/biodegradable products, and we remain committed to investing in the future to continue the business success the company has reported."

"This report was approved by the board of directors on 3 September 2019 and signed on behalf of the board by:

P D James

Director"

Edited May 3, 2020 by stagboy
typo

[andrewluke]

23 minutes ago, stagboy said:

Why are certain UK-based cartridge makers putting out a begging bowl? What have they been doing with their profits over last 20 years since lead became an issue? Why are they claiming to have been caught on the hop by the prospect of changing from lead and single use plastic within the next five years?   

 

Here are two parts of the startegic statement accompanying Gamebore's last report and accounts, from Companies House  (emphasis in bold by me): 

 

"The profit for the year after taxation amounted to £1,865,755 (2017 - £1,866,414). The company's net current assets position is £9,954,759 and the net balance sheet total remains strong at £12,624,076."

 

"The company operates in the shotgun cartridge and lead shot industry and supplies the worldwide market. The principal risks are: 1. Global market restrictions on gun laws 2. Changes in legislation regarding our current products containing lead 3. Changes in exchange rates 4. Competitive pressure 5. Brexit uncertainty for importing and exporting. The company has strategies to manage these risks, and the directors are actively investing in new machinery and technology. Gamebore has been at the forefront for the past 25 years in alternative non-toxic/biodegradable products, and we remain committed to investing in the future to continue the business success the company has reported."

"This report was approved by the board of directors on 3 September 2019 and signed on behalf of the board by:

P D James

Director"

the cartridge companies want a hand out then charge you top whack for their "new" cartridges

[Salopian]

I am led to believe that Hevi-shot is no longer available here in the UK because it became too expensive .

Do any of you know if it is available and how expensive it may be , asking because I believe it is the nearest equivalent to lead shot .

[Smokersmith]

4 minutes ago, Salopian said:

I am led to believe that Hevi-shot is no longer available here in the UK because it became too expensive .

Do any of you know if it is available and how expensive it may be , asking because I believe it is the nearest equivalent to lead shot .

I don't believe it's commercially available, and I don't believe it's the closest to lead shot either.

It's extremely hard and abrasive, and needs very carefully handling through the bores.