Why so many planes flying over the UK?

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, henry d said:

Chemtrails... chemtrails! Run, hide!

😉

I'm not there if their looking for me today 😁

[fern01]

The farmer gets cheap hard working labour for little money and then he recoups some of that by providing accommodation in his row of mobile homes

[Jaymo]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Chemtrails... chemtrails! Run, hide!

😉

Oh, don’t you bloody start

[scolopax]

On 01/04/2020 at 13:41, fern01 said:

Would that be a bring you home type flight or perhaps your own private jet?

no, the go away to work abroad type of flights.  Flying internationally or even domestically has not been stopped. I started my journey by flying from Manchester to Heathrow, although both airports were like being in a foreign country.

[12gauge82]

23 hours ago, henry d said:

If, and there are ifs, they are clear of the virus via our tests in the UK, they are isolated on farms, are conscious that they should not be meeting others, then they are safe and so are we. What is more they are helping our supply chain just like the truckers etc.

Why do our own British working age people not want to work in the fields? Surely that is obvious, too hard and doesn't pay enough? I remember 25 years ago seeing the berry buses parked in the council estates full of families and heading off to the farms, then the DHSS started to do checks on the farms and the work dried up, the farmers advertised for workers from Europe and got hard working people cheaply. Can we go back to that? Not unless people change their minds on what work means to them and are poor enough or desperate enough to do this essential work

Got to disagree with this.

Why are we risking bringing more potential virus carriers into the country, while everyone else is being told to stay at home.

Pay our own people to do it, it might take a bit of time to train people up to standard, farmers would have to pay a much higher wage and the cost of the food produced would go up, but then those workers would make a better wage to go back into the economy.

The old "British workers don't want to do it", or "The British are too lazy" is an absolute nonsense, as in all labour markets, you need to pay the appropriate wage to attract the right people, pay enough and you'd get you produce picked every bit, if not more efficiently by a British worker as any Romanian.

[Mice!]

12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The old "British workers don't want to do it", or "The British are too lazy" is an absolute nonsense, as in all labour markets, you need to pay the appropriate wage to attract the right people, pay enough and you'd get you produce picked every bit, if not more efficiently by a British worker as any Romanian.

So how much would you expect to get paid for picking fruit or veg? It's long hours and hard work on most likely minimum wage, my local morrisons had something like a 150 people queuing outside yesterday to apply for new jobs, people were being turned away after two hours. Yes some people want to work but the chances of seasonal fruit picking paying enough to get people off benefits is slim to none.

[Raja Clavata]

Surely these migrant workers are on at least the minimum wage?

If we were demonstrating anything like world leading mitigation of CV-19 then I'd genuinely get the point about potential importing additional virus carriers, but we aren't, so it could be equally reasonable to assume these people had reservations about the prospect of coming here and getting infected themselves.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Surely these migrant workers are on at least the minimum wage?

If we were demonstrating anything like world leading mitigation of CV-19 then I'd genuinely get the point about potential importing additional virus carriers, but we aren't, so it could be equally reasonable to assume these people had reservations about the prospect of coming here and getting infected themselves.

I'm sure they are, but what's the point or sense in deciding this virus is so dangerous people are being placed under virtual house arrest, to then allow more potential virus carriers in, all for the sake of saving a few quid, even if the risk is minimal, what message does it send to all the people being forced to stay home?

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So how much would you expect to get paid for picking fruit or veg? It's long hours and hard work on most likely minimum wage, my local morrisons had something like a 150 people queuing outside yesterday to apply for new jobs, people were being turned away after two hours. Yes some people want to work but the chances of seasonal fruit picking paying enough to get people off benefits is slim to none.

Like any labour market, pay enough and you'd get the right workers. Why stop at fruit picking, why don't we stop employing UK supermarket workers and only employ from abroad, you could really drive the wage down, infact why stop there, we could do it with all sorts of employment. 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I'm sure they are, but what's the point or sense in deciding this virus is so dangerous people are being placed under virtual house arrest, to then allow more potential virus carriers in, all for the sake of saving a few quid, even if the risk is minimal, what message does it send to all the people being forced to stay home?

I thought these workers were themselves self isolating in a way - which is probably a good idea.

The only people under virtual house arrest are those identified as vulnerable - those people aren't going to come into contact with these migrant workers.

This thing with migrant workers being used for seasonal work has been rumbling on for years, if it was a simple issue to fix it would have been fixed by now, surely?

OK, so assuming the govt had decided that the risk of bringing them in was unacceptable (don't forget if they get sick here then it's our problem) and banned them from doing so - what do you propose as the mitigation?

Personally I would have preferred to see a campaign to get our own college students, who are currently sat on their hands, mobilised to do this work - it would certainly have been a good experience for my 17yo (bless him, he's handling all this pretty well). But I suspect the resources weren't available to plan for this in time, particularly given everything else going on...

[henry d]

They are VITAL workers, we need food on the table, we need to keep the farms running, we need to have money exchanging hands and OUR workers walked away from this work. That's why farms looked at foreign workers, they needed lodging, so it helped the farmers to increase capacity to have them over here for 5-6 months at a time. Our soft fruit farms, tomato/pepper growers, salad growers ploughed lots of money into it and helped the country by increasing money into the exchequer and decreasing reliance on foreign imports. Our own workers were mainly families from run down areas working for 4-6 weeks in the summer and 2 weeks in October, in retrospect this held farmers back.

They are needed, there are safety checks in place and numbers of people are low.

[Mice!]

18 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Like any labour market, pay enough and you'd get the right workers. Why stop at fruit picking, why don't we stop employing UK supermarket workers and only employ from abroad, you could really drive the wage down, infact why stop there, we could do it with all sorts of employment. 

You haven't answered how much should they pay? While people are coming and doing work others don't want to do people will just grumble,  but start driving down wages and taking jobs and then it will get messy.

I've seen it in engineering,  you go for an interview,  see a few signs in Polish and it clicks why the wage is lower than you would expect.

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, henry d said:

They are VITAL workers, we need food on the table, we need to keep the farms running, we need to have money exchanging hands and OUR workers walked away from this work. That's why farms looked at foreign workers, they needed lodging, so it helped the farmers to increase capacity to have them over here for 5-6 months at a time. Our soft fruit farms, tomato/pepper growers, salad growers ploughed lots of money into it and helped the country by increasing money into the exchequer and decreasing reliance on foreign imports. Our own workers were mainly families from run down areas working for 4-6 weeks in the summer and 2 weeks in October, in retrospect this held farmers back.

They are needed, there are safety checks in place and numbers of people are low.

Again, I disagree, foreign workers are only needed because the wage offered to UK workers is lower than what the job requires, business then proclaims they can't get UK workers, you could do that to any career in the UK, if you don't pay enough, you won't get people prepared to do the job.

The fact that food production is a vital role only strengthens my argument, why are we relying on foreign labour for vital UK service?

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

You haven't answered how much should they pay? While people are coming and doing work others don't want to do people will just grumble,  but start driving down wages and taking jobs and then it will get messy.

I've seen it in engineering,  you go for an interview,  see a few signs in Polish and it clicks why the wage is lower than you would expect.

I'm afraid I'm not an economics expert. Are you denying that if enough money was paid for the role, you'd still not get UK workers who would be prepared and suitable to do the job, because if you are, that would be utterly ridiculous.

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I thought these workers were themselves self isolating in a way - which is probably a good idea.

The only people under virtual house arrest are those identified as vulnerable - those people aren't going to come into contact with these migrant workers.

This thing with migrant workers being used for seasonal work has been rumbling on for years, if it was a simple issue to fix it would have been fixed by now, surely?

OK, so assuming the govt had decided that the risk of bringing them in was unacceptable (don't forget if they get sick here then it's our problem) and banned them from doing so - what do you propose as the mitigation?

Personally I would have preferred to see a campaign to get our own college students, who are currently sat on their hands, mobilised to do this work - it would certainly have been a good experience for my 17yo (bless him, he's handling all this pretty well). But I suspect the resources weren't available to plan for this in time, particularly given everything else going on...

The UK population is only allowed to leave their house for specific, set reasons, however you dress it up, thats a huge restriction to their civil liberties.

The point is, why risk further virus carriers, or transmission back to Romania and what message does it send?

[Mice!]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Again, I disagree, foreign workers are only needed because the wage offered to UK workers is lower than what the job requires, business then proclaims they can't get UK workers, you could do that to any career in the UK, if you don't pay enough, you won't get people prepared to do the job.

The fact that food production is a vital role only strengthens my argument, why are we relying on foreign labour for vital UK service?

How many brits would go and live in a porta cabin on a farm for a few months? I've said this in over threads in the past, it won't happen. 

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm afraid I'm not an economics expert. Are you denying that if enough money was paid for the role, you'd still not get UK workers who would be prepared and suitable to do the job, because if you are, that would be utterly ridiculous.

But you won't put a number on it, people are needed for months at a time as Henry has said, I used to chat with the workers in Arbroath,  dentists coming picking fruit because they earned more, and every other kind of job you can probably imagine. 

You won't get people out in the fields picking fruit when they can sit at home and payed for it.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, going back to my original post of knowing 50 people coming to the farm every year from the Chech Republic, in 6 months they earned as much as a years salary in their country,

[henry d]

Go into the sites, they offer minimum wage, some living wage! To maximize output you need to either live on-site or be willing to commute, therefore there are costs involved, either transport or housing. It's illegal not to, and yes some farmers will try to drop it below minimum, but they are a minority.

[norfolk dumpling]

This used to be my early morning dog walk - now nothing but blue sky!

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The UK population is only allowed to leave their house for specific, set reasons, however you dress it up, thats a huge restriction to their civil liberties.

The point is, why risk further virus carriers, or transmission back to Romania and what message does it send?

Well I guess you have a choice to either support or disagree with the restrictions and I guess some people flouting the rules do so not just because they are stupid and selfish but because they strongly object to them.

Because the risk is a drop in the ocean in the big scheme of things - some UK scientists will have already have worked that out.

You didn't answer with what your proposal would be - let the crops fail and the farmer go bust? Get the govt to bail him out?

Just now, Mice! said:

You won't get people out in the fields picking fruit when they can sit at home and payed for it.

And some of the ones not totally work shy probably already have secondary sources of income that pay well above what they'd ever earn picking fruit?

[12gauge82]

38 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Well I guess you have a choice to either support or disagree with the restrictions and I guess some people flouting the rules do so not just because they are stupid and selfish but because they strongly object to them.

Because the risk is a drop in the ocean in the big scheme of things - some UK scientists will have already have worked that out.

You didn't answer with what your proposal would be - let the crops fail and the farmer go bust? Get the govt to bail him out?

And some of the ones not totally work shy probably already have secondary sources of income that pay well above what they'd ever earn picking fruit?

My proposal is to offer a wage that attracts the right people, as you would in any other work sector. 

Your dead right, the risk is likely minimal, however, while people are being fined for having a picnic in the middle of nowhere, also very minimal risk, what message is it sending to the millions of people being ordered to stay at home?

48 minutes ago, Mice! said:

How many brits would go and live in a porta cabin on a farm for a few months? I've said this in over threads in the past, it won't happen. 

But you won't put a number on it, people are needed for months at a time as Henry has said, I used to chat with the workers in Arbroath,  dentists coming picking fruit because they earned more, and every other kind of job you can probably imagine. 

You won't get people out in the fields picking fruit when they can sit at home and payed for it.

It's not my job to put a number on it, neither is it my job to put a number on any other sector, if you pay the right wage, you get the right people, that's what happens in virtually every other employment sector in the country.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

My proposal is to offer a wage that attracts the right people, as you would in any other work sector. 

Your dead right, the risk is likely minimal, however, while people are being fined for having a picnic in the middle of nowhere, also very minimal risk, what message is it sending to the millions of people being ordered to stay at home?

That could be a solution for next season but something must be preventing it else it would have happened before?

I don't get the problem with the clear message that there are rules and there are exceptions to the rules, by definition the exception is applied by exception, not the norm.

I do agree with the picnic park thing by the way, doesn't make sense to me but it's the rule. Really do feel for people living in flats tho.

[12gauge82]

15 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That could be a solution for next season but something must be preventing it else it would have happened before?

I don't get the problem with the clear message that there are rules and there are exceptions to the rules, by definition the exception is applied by exception, not the norm.

I do agree with the picnic park thing by the way, doesn't make sense to me but it's the rule. Really do feel for people living in flats tho.

I'm not arguing with staying in, but there's alot of people flouting it already, flying people in doesn't send the right message out in my opinion.

[Raja Clavata]

Fair enough 👍

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

How many brits would go and live in a porta cabin on a farm for a few months? I've said this in over threads in the past, it won't happen. 

Actually quite a few; just not in the UK.  I know a couple of people who did this whilst travelling, or in any case, before they got houses/families etc.  Long days, and your body certainly needs to get used to repeated physical work, but the social/communal aspect appeals, and you're certainly not spending the money you're earning.

However, you need to be at a certain point in your life in order to do this, or at least have a family that is used to daddy being away for weeks at a time.  You don't just 'drop in' to that kind of life.

The thought that you could bus in members of, as Viz puts it, the scratting classes, and tell them do it for minimum wage or else, and expect decent results is cloud-cuckoo land. 

[henry d]

I found an interesting article which also adds to the story of why local people don't pick (in particular, soft fruit) anymore and surprisingly it's due to the Supermarkets

Check out the photos, from way back until the mid 90's, that's some expansion and change by farms in a little over 20 years!

[Newbie to this]

56 minutes ago, henry d said:

I found an interesting article which also adds to the story of why local people don't pick (in particular, soft fruit) anymore and surprisingly it's due to the Supermarkets

Check out the photos, from way back until the mid 90's, that's some expansion and change by farms in a little over 20 years!

Thanks for the link

Very believable. No one wants to be associated with child labour, not in the UK anyway, I'm sure supermarkets are happy when it happens in places like India and China, but only when the public don't catch wind of it.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Newbie to this

[12gauge82]

37 minutes ago, henry d said:

I found an interesting article which also adds to the story of why local people don't pick (in particular, soft fruit) anymore and surprisingly it's due to the Supermarkets

Check out the photos, from way back until the mid 90's, that's some expansion and change by farms in a little over 20 years!

Very interesting, but like all other industries that had to modify its practices, they need to pay a decent wage for the work that's expected, instead of churning out the same offensive nonsense that "The British are too lazy to pick fruit and veg".