grrclark Posted April 20, 2020 Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: With respect to mistakes, I think any right minded individual will accept that they have and will continue to happen but in the fullness of time we do need to know if they were all "innocent" failings or in some cases negligence. I think it would be in our interest if these questions were answered sooner rather than later save them being lost in the noise of what I suspect will be a significant ding dong between govt advisers and the civil service. That issue in itself may be the cause of some of the things that haven't gone as well as they might... I don't disagree with that and that is where quality journalism will shine as will hopefully robust parliamentary scrutiny that moves beyond partisan political point scoring. It would be a foolish man who would say that no mistakes have been made and also an equally foolish one to claim that there would be no attempts to disguise systemic failures by those who should have done better, some of that will be in the political arena, some in the civil service and some in the academic community providing the guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted April 20, 2020 Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 Agreed. I strongly suspect attempts to disguise a series of systemic failures is a significant contributing factor to how we got here, from Wuhan, and we all know how that works. Good evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted April 20, 2020 Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: I'm not sure what the approach has been in Japan but it will be interesting to see how they fare in Germany and other parts of the EU as they relax restrictions - not that we should directly draw too much by what happens in Germany as they have obviously taken a very different approach to us. I had a read on the New Zealand lockdown earlier, I was surprised at how early they initiated lockdown and how few deaths they have had, Germany's approach has obviously been very different to ours but as someone said on one of the many threads, they accept being told to lockdown say Birmingham while Manchester carry on. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens in Europe as places relax the lockdown and I wouldn't blame our government for waiting to see how it goes. New Zealand locked down in Early/mid March and are just relaxing it now in some places, obviously a much different country layout and population but here in the UK people are calling for the lockdown to be relaxed or lifted for the sake of the economy ? After just 4 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotguneddy Posted April 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 15 hours ago, toontastic said: It's easy writing that now after the event. There are loads of different experts advising the government on when to end lockdown perhaps you can give us the exact date now as you are apparently the number 1 pandemic expert. Or are you just going to come on here in a few months time and tell us how they lifted it too early/late. Yeah I’m an expert, grow up mate just saying what probably 3/4 England are thinking now 15 hours ago, Cheshirelad said: People usually only get tested when they are already exhibiting symptoms, so it's a total waste of time and money testing everybody. It's easy to criticize, but this is a totally new situation that the country AND THE WORLD is in. Couch experts are ten a penny, and they have ALL the answers. Idiots. Doctors nurses care homes I meant and as to couch expert good one I work 12 hour shifts making sure u ********* got food in your cupboards if you don’t like the topic and debate don’t read and reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontastic Posted April 22, 2020 Report Share Posted April 22, 2020 Watching a report today about a football match at Liverpool. Experts are now saying the match should have been called off by the government as it proberbly led to a lot of infections. Anyway this Liverpool football fan got interviewed and he was kicking off about the match taking place and claiming he picked up the virus at the match and passed it on to family members. He then made a strange statement he said it was blatantly obvious to anyone that the match was a huge risk and should have been called off. Now my question is, if the risk was blatantly obvious to anyone then why did he attend. Or is he just another hindsight expert looking to blame Boris for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 22, 2020 Report Share Posted April 22, 2020 Just now, toontastic said: Now my question is, if the risk was blatantly obvious to anyone then why did he attend. I feel exactly the same about Cheltenham (Gold Cup race week with near 250,000 tickets) which is near me. Hospitals in the local area have had double the admissions of other hospitals in the region, alertedly due to virus being picked up in race week. Many locals were desperate for it to go ahead (a good part of their years income) - many others (me included as you will see earlier on this board) were convinced it would spread infection, since the chances that no one attending would have it were negligible - so it was bound to be spread further. A number of prominent people have claimed to have been infected at Cheltenham https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/apr/02/cheltenham-faces-criticism-after-racegoers-suffer-covid-19-symptoms Personally, I would not have attended even if someone paid me, but for some people - it is the highlight of their year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted April 22, 2020 Report Share Posted April 22, 2020 32 minutes ago, toontastic said: Now my question is, if the risk was blatantly obvious to anyone then why did he attend. Or is he just another hindsight expert looking to blame Boris for everything. Yep, people abrogating their responsibility for their own actions and choices because it's easier to blame someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted April 22, 2020 Report Share Posted April 22, 2020 39 minutes ago, toontastic said: Now my question is, if the risk was blatantly obvious to anyone then why did he attend. Or is he just another hindsight expert looking to blame Boris for everything. 2 mins of fame no doubt, 3000 fans from Spain shouldn't have been allowed to travel from somewhere that was obviously having problems. But he definitely didn't have to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic69 Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 Maybe the plan was to infect a reasonably small amount of people in a short time? The Gov't have never really claimed to be preventing Covid deaths, just reducing the peaks to a manageable number so the NHS aren't over-stretched and more preventable deaths don't occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Demonic69 said: The Gov't have never really claimed to be preventing Covid deaths, just reducing the peaks to a manageable number so the NHS aren't over-stretched and more preventable deaths don't occur. Sadly there will always be deaths (at least until there (may be) an effective treatment), but since we haven't solved that for colds or flu, it is unlikely at present. The PLAN therefore has to be 'herd immunity' - either by many people getting the real virus, or (preferably) by vaccination. The big problems with this are that we don't have a vaccine - or a timescale for one - and we don't know for certain that the antibodies (on which herd immunity relies) will either be effective, or lasting. The other HUGE problem - is that even when you have a vaccine that is effective - administering it to everyone ......... in the world. With widespread global travel in hours, mass tourism, business trips, sporting events/tours etc, this is going to keep going in areas not (yet) vaccinated - and the possibilities for mutations that render the vaccine ineffective are probably a big risk (I'm not a virologist, but that seems to be the case). Personally, I think there is likely to be a very different world that may emerge, one where travel is much more of an item reserved for essential purposes - and has many more restrictions. This is going to be a step change in lives - and the 'anti carbon usage' people will be trumpeting for huge reductions in (especially air) travel. I hear that a fleet of 747s are being parked up locally - not in use at present, so placed on a non commercial airfield https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/cotswold-airport-becomes-plane-park-4054022 These are mostly old planes and it looks like they may never fly again (it is presumably no coincidence that Kemble has a specialised scrap facility for aircraft). Edited April 23, 2020 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 Cheaper for BA and other operators to park their unused aircraft at these old airfields than pay major airports to house them at a premium. Then when they decide whether they will be sold off as unwanted or scrapped it is easier from these airfields. The anti deterioration servicings will still be carried out to keep the jets ready for bringing back in to use later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic69 Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Cheaper for BA and other operators to park their unused aircraft at these old airfields than pay major airports to house them at a premium. Then when they decide whether they will be sold off as unwanted or scrapped it is easier from these airfields. The anti deterioration servicings will still be carried out to keep the jets ready for bringing back in to use later on. What do you think will happen with the pilots with expiring ratings? Could be a fair few no longer allowed to be PiC of commercial aircraft after this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 Agreed, but I think there is an awareness that 'post Covid' - whatever that means and whenever it is! (and that is a key question) - not as many aircraft will be needed in operators fleets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 Personally I think there will be a lot less aircraft flying, a lot less pilots needed and flying for holidays will be reserved for those with lots of cash. It had gone mad in the run up to Covid19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Personally I think there will be a lot less aircraft flying, a lot less pilots needed and flying for holidays will be reserved for those with lots of cash. It had gone mad in the run up to Covid19. Well I've just paid my 12 month pitch fee for the caravan, I can see these being really popular this year. If we are allowed to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 Cheltenham was allowed to carry on because the cost of cancelling it would have been astronomical, that's the truth of it. Too big a deal to pull the plug on it The Liverpool match was probably much the same reasoning but both were wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Vince Green said: Cheltenham was allowed to carry on because the cost of cancelling it would have been astronomical, that's the truth of it. That may have been the truth; this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8249709/Area-Cheltenham-Racecourse-shows-Covid-19-spike.html was the consequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: That may have been the truth; this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8249709/Area-Cheltenham-Racecourse-shows-Covid-19-spike.html was the consequence. Sad. I have to say, hindsight was not actually required to figure this one out. 😞 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotguneddy Posted April 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 Test and trace that went well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 24, 2020 Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 On 20/04/2020 at 21:52, Mice! said: I had a read on the New Zealand lockdown earlier, I was surprised at how early they initiated lockdown and how few deaths they have had, Germany's approach has obviously been very different to ours but as someone said on one of the many threads, they accept being told to lockdown say Birmingham while Manchester carry on. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens in Europe as places relax the lockdown and I wouldn't blame our government for waiting to see how it goes. New Zealand locked down in Early/mid March and are just relaxing it now in some places, obviously a much different country layout and population but here in the UK people are calling for the lockdown to be relaxed or lifted for the sake of the economy ? After just 4 weeks. You would struggle to notice many of the effects of lockdown in vast areas of New Zealand. Neither would it have had anything like the financial impact its having here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted April 24, 2020 Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Vince Green said: You would struggle to notice many of the effects of lockdown in vast areas of New Zealand. Neither would it have had anything like the financial impact its having here. New Zealand could be in lockdown for a year and it wouldn’t see any impact anyway. It’s at the **** end of the world, few international travellers and it’s economy is a few sheep. I hear all the time from Kiwis over here how wonderful it is and then I remind them that they are over here. Edited April 24, 2020 by AVB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted April 24, 2020 Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Vince Green said: You would struggle to notice many of the effects of lockdown in vast areas of New Zealand. Neither would it have had anything like the financial impact its having here. I understand it's a small population in a big area spread out. But there still has to be a financial impact, if people aren't going out they aren't working. The politicians all taking a 20% wage cut is a nice touch. 32 minutes ago, AVB said: New Zealand could be in lockdown for a year and it wouldn’t see any impact anyway. It’s at the **** end of the world, few international travellers and it’s economy is a few sheep. Sounds ideal about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted April 24, 2020 Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Mice! said: I understand it's a small population in a big area spread out. But there still has to be a financial impact, if people aren't going out they aren't working. The politicians all taking a 20% wage cut is a nice touch. Sounds ideal about now. I'm not sure i get this. While I appreciate the symbolism of all being in it together, should someone who is still doing their job be expected to take a paycut? Should all of us who continue to work take a paycut, maybe just those funded by the public purse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbob Posted April 24, 2020 Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 Im wondering if there's a inquiry after this and they point the finger at certain points like someone not ordering PPE and lying about it etc will criminal charges be bought to bear for unnecessary deaths ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted April 24, 2020 Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bigbob said: Im wondering if there's a inquiry after this and they point the finger at certain points like someone not ordering PPE and lying about it etc will criminal charges be bought to bear for unnecessary deaths ?? It can and never will be so simple that you could point a finger at an individual. There is nobody with a job title of PPE buyer for NHS. How on earth could you prove what an unnecessary death is either in the case of a pandemic with a novel virus? "Could have, would have, should have..." If after the event we can prove systemic failures then there should be consequence, but it would have to be for an objective failure not an artificial construct of what might have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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