Call me sceptical but !!!

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

But so many of the problems were avoidable if the government took the problem seriously. We were by the EU offered to go in for a bulk buy of millions of PPE articles in February and Boris said no we did not need them. Dozens of UK firms  8 weeks ago  offered to make PPE and ventilators and the government failed to take them up on their offers preferring to get them from China , much of which has still not arrived. Some of my  local care homes are very short of PPE now. making them in the Uk was a win win solution. It would have  given work to the firms, employment to staff, and supplied the NHS and care homes. But no the government dithered and delayed for weeks . They appeared to fail to realise the PPE gets used up at a fast rate. One order is just enough for a short time and back up orders are needed , again Boris and co failed. They put every excuse they could think of to not test for the virus antibody, many laughable if it was not so serious and only when the public outcry was so high it could not be i

Ignored have they finally started to do it. The main excuse was they had to make sure the tests worked. Well they worked in New Zealand, Taiwan, Singapore , Germany ect so there was no reason why they would not work here. The majority of the world has been wearing face masks since the start of the outbreak and yet for some reason Boris and Co thought they were a bad idea. Maybe they thought we would all turn into bank robbers. They are not as effective as we would like , but they are better than nothing. How many are dead now because of not wearing masks. Even if only one less died it would have been worth it. I got my masks , made in the UK , but bought mail order from Holland back in late March after the UK firm that made them could not sell them to Boris and co. Too little, Too late , to bad is the slogan of this government. Oh one final point , what did Dominic Cummings , Boris's political advisor say on film? O yes. If OAPS die because of this virus, too bad. I am an OAP and thought that statement  insulting.

The government did sign up for european bulk buy . It had up to last week not thrown up a single iten of PPE. It never happened. We could have signed up with The Aztecs and got as much PPE.gear as the euro signing gave us.

[clangerman]

14 minutes ago, toontastic said:

What is wrong with you????

You go on one thread advocating violating the lockdown to go pigeon shooting etc. Then you pop up on another thread wanting to shoot people for breaking lockdown. 

there is never a need to insult people it shows not only a lack  of intelligence but lack of both standards and manners forums are for opinions not insults 

[toontastic]

16 minutes ago, clangerman said:

there is never a need to insult people it shows not only a lack  of intelligence but lack of both standards and manners forums are for opinions not insults 

So your opinion is: people break the lockdown and they deserve to be shot dead in the street no questions, unless they are breaking it to go and do something that you agree with. 

On another matter you ask someone what is wrong with them and it's questioning, I ask the same question to you and I'm being insulting. You really are full of double standards. I don't know what you do for a living but I'm fairly sure a career in politics awaits you 

Edited May 2, 2020 by toontastic

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, toontastic said:

So your opinion is: people break the lockdown and they deserve to be shot dead in the street no questions, unless they are breaking it to go and do something that you agree with. 

That is about the size of it.

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The government did sign up for european bulk buy . It had up to last week not thrown up a single iten of PPE. It never happened. We could have signed up with The Aztecs and got as much PPE.gear as the euro signing gave us.

I thought I had read that as well, but wasn't sure.

[clangerman]

3 minutes ago, toontastic said:

So your opinion is: people break the lockdown and they deserve to be shot dead in the street no questions, unless they are breaking it to go and do something that you agree with. 

had the lockdown not been half baked it would have saved lives as for shooting it is not breaking the lockdown if undertaken in the proper manner everybody’s opinion counts even those who don’t agree with me or anyone else 

[lancer425]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

I thought I had read that as well, but wasn't sure.

I am Nearly 100% on this, if you look on youtube probably mid week before last on the briefing they gave out that info too.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I am Nearly 100% on this, if you look on youtube probably mid week before last on the briefing they gave out that info too.

I think you are right - but not based on the 'great minds think alike' principle.

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

had the lockdown not been half baked it would have saved lives as for shooting it is not breaking the lockdown if undertaken in the proper manner everybody’s opinion counts even those who don’t agree with me or anyone else 

I think compliance has been generally good around this Lockdown. But it could have always been better. And if it had been better complied with i have no doubt in my mind that more of us would be here breathing UKs air tonight.

We are where we are. I do not agree with you. I Do struggle too on so many counts its not funny. But hey ho. your an movable object which we are just going to have to work around. Its frustrating but You do what you want because you can.

I WISH the government would stand up and say to me LANCE NO YOU ******* cant go out foxing. Stop the **** in!.

But they have not and THATS THAT>

[lancer425]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think you are right - but not based on the 'great minds think alike' principle.

Don’t you think its time we just got on as a country i mean. Just tackling the job in hand getting this R thing on the deck. All the bitching in the media papers, questions from idiots looking to tie the government in knots. Its just not the right time.   It is WRONG! Just saying.

[PPP]

4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I believe we are at Day 40, so about week 6.

They say it takes on average 5 days to 'show', then 7 days to get better (or bad for those for whom it will get bad), then maybe 7 days in hospital to get better (or go to ICU for those who need it) - and typically another 7 to 14 days in ICU - whichever outcome.  So from exposure to death might be say 20 to 30 days - implying at least some of those dying now caught it well after lockdown, but I think it is very hard to know - as some people are ill for a very long time ........., and those who are compromised by frailty or underlying illness (as many deaths are) may spend less time at each stage.

I have to admit, I had expected deaths and infections to fall off more rapidly about 3 or 4 weeks after lockdown.

I thought this a week or so ago, but actually thinking about it , more testing means more cases discovered not necessarily more cases ( hope that makes sense, havent worded it too well).  In respect of death rare, they are now including all deaths and not splitting out hospital so we can’t see the reduction as clearly, position this time next week versus today will give a better picture.  In any event we have a long way to go and the exit will be complicated, drawn out and painful.  If we get out of this losing 1/4M people more ( in say 4 years) than we ‘would’ have done when counting all deaths including those due to cancelled appointments for other illnesses and mental health problems (as Chris Witty alluded to) I’ll be surprised.

[Vince Green]

16 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I believe we are at Day 40, so about week 6.

They say it takes on average 5 days to 'show', then 7 days to get better (or bad for those for whom it will get bad), then maybe 7 days in hospital to get better (or go to ICU for those who need it) - and typically another 7 to 14 days in ICU - whichever outcome.  So from exposure to death might be say 20 to 30 days - implying at least some of those dying now caught it well after lockdown, but I think it is very hard to know - as some people are ill for a very long time ........., and those who are compromised by frailty or underlying illness (as many deaths are) may spend less time at each stage.

I have to admit, I had expected deaths and infections to fall off more rapidly about 3 or 4 weeks after lockdown.

Yes you are more or less right, new cases now have been infected in lockdown almost certainly. Many people still haven't got a clue about hand transmission, two examples.

1) my mothers friend goes to Morrisons, no gloves, afterwards she said "as soon as I had put all my shopping away I gave my hands a good wash" so she had been touching the kitchen handles, fridge etc inside her house before she washed her hands.

2) Woman seen coming out of Tesco with trolley load of shopping talking on her phone. Even if you explained it to he she probably wouldn't get it

little things but they add up

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-latest-contaminated-surfaces-covid-19-droplets-air-explained-sage-2680179?itm_source=parsely-api 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Vince Green

[ClemFandango]

15 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

The WHO managed to stop the last 3 potential pandemic virus and SARS,  Swine Flue ect.  The leaders of the world were asleep at the wheel on this one

 

No they ******* weren't!! 

Do you think that the first person that gets a brand new, unknown virus gets picked up every time? Of course not!! 

The odds are that it had already left China before anybody knew it existed. It doesn't matter how many people move about then, once it's out it's out.

The difference of Covid-19 and SARS etc is the infection rate. One person with C-19 potentially infects  more people than one person with flu or sars or whatever. 

You can't compare them.

 

[ClemFandango]

15 hours ago, strimmer_13 said:

Everybody wants somebody to blame. Well blame yourself. Blame your holidays. Blame your clothes that came from abroad. Blame your food that came from abroad. Blame your holidays that you take abroad. Blame your kids that go abroad. Blame your work that imports and exports abroad. Blame your work that sends you abroad. Blame your cartridges that have componets from abroad. Blame your imported guns. Or your cars. Hell, while your at it you might as well go fire bomb some 5g masts you all sound so angry about anything that could be blamed. Millions of ways any pathogen can spead, nobody giving two ****s about the way it HASN'T spread, whats trying to be done to stop it spreading, they just want to bitch about the way it COULDNT of been stopped. Be thankful this aint airborne

YES exactly!! 

This virus had almost certainly left China before anyone knew it existed. It was going to get here, if it wasn't already. 

The world's only hope from the start was to limit the damage. 

[Raja Clavata]

16 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

Boris and Co will not trust us to know what is going on and would rather treat us like children and sing happy birthday twice while washing our hands.

Boris and Co still don't know exactly what is going on with this virus, nobody does, even if it was deliberately created and released the entity responsible wouldn't know what would happen afterwards in any kind of detail. Anyone who suggests they do know is probably on the spectrum.

I think the government have been largely transparent in telling us what they do know, certainly not treating us like children in that respect in my opinion. I suspect the advisors in the background are telling them to be cautious in order to avoid stating something that later needs to be rescinded. Nothing more than that.

Regarding social distancing and the lockdown, unfortunately a percentage of the population do need to be treated like children.

[Vince Green]

3 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

YES exactly!! 

This virus had almost certainly left China before anyone knew it existed. It was going to get here, if it wasn't already. 

The world's only hope from the start was to limit the damage. 

Yes you are right, one of the reasons which I had not realised until this happened is that Italy uses a lot of Chinese workers as cheap labour. They use them in the clothing factories in Northern Italy and a lot in the hotels.

The first cases in Italy were all Chinese Nationals. The emergence coincided with the ski season, and skiers took it back to their own countries having probably caught it from workers in their hotels.

[Raja Clavata]

15 hours ago, strimmer_13 said:

Everybody wants somebody to blame. Well blame yourself. Blame your holidays. Blame your clothes that came from abroad. Blame your food that came from abroad. Blame your holidays that you take abroad. Blame your kids that go abroad. Blame your work that imports and exports abroad. Blame your work that sends you abroad. Blame your cartridges that have componets from abroad. Blame your imported guns. Or your cars. Hell, while your at it you might as well go fire bomb some 5g masts you all sound so angry about anything that could be blamed. Millions of ways any pathogen can spead, nobody giving two ****s about the way it HASN'T spread, whats trying to be done to stop it spreading, they just want to bitch about the way it COULDNT of been stopped. Be thankful this aint airborne

Not quite everybody - plenty of us realise the cat is already out the bag - horse bolted etc. - it's important to know how and where this originated but that should not be our primary focus right now.

Re. blame - in summary you are saying blame "life" and I agree. It's generally accepted that as a species we are currently in the "life 2.0" phase where "life 1.0" was more or less the period of our evolution prior to the industrial revolution. At a high level we were more or less "happily" making our way towards the next major transition, "life 3.0" based on the widespread development and roll-out of intelligent machines - Artificial Intelligence. For me the really interesting question is, is this pandemic going to create enough disturbance to us to represent "life 3.0" instead of AI, OK we can theorise that it could be something like life "2.5" but we don't know yet.

Re. airborne - if we blame life for the spread then we can thank the Sun for preventing airborne transmission over long distances and, I assume, be very grateful that the virus does not appear to resistant to UV and the various free radicals in the atmosphere, including ozone etc.

For me, the sad thing is that if we step back and ponder "life" then as a species we probably deserve something far worse than this strain of corona virus.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Re. airborne - if we blame life for the spread then we can thank the Sun for preventing airborne transmission over long distances and, I assume, be very grateful that the virus does not appear to resistant to UV and the various free radicals in the atmosphere, including ozone etc.

There is something that has long been recognised called "Open-air Factor" https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(19)30153-7/fulltext which has been used (perhaps by fortunate accident), but is undoubtedly a fact.  However - when the virus is in 'droplets' such as when exhaled as part of a cough, the actual viral bits are protected within the drop.  I am not sure that the detailed way it works is well understood (UV, free radicals, air movement) - but it seems to cease to work indoors, even in well ventilated buildings and near open windows.

Many modern offices have the 'cassette in the ceiling tiles' type of heating and air conditioning - being a cheap way to have air conditioning in summer and a heat pump based (green ticks in boxes) heating in winter.  They circulate and temperature adjust recycled air and I suspect are very poor for containing all forms of 'bug transmission'.  Before I retired, in our offices we went from individual (or shared between 2) offices with conventional water radiators for heating with opening windows and fans for cooling - to open plan with these cassette based 'air conditioning' systems and sealed windows.  It also allowed a higher number of people per unit of floorspace ........... and led to a very noticeable increase in cold/cough/flu/sinus complaints and illnesses - and also gave trouble with (excessively low) humidity causing electrostatic problems.

I think these systems and the high number of people per unit area of modern open plan offices will be a major problem with safe distances as we 'unlock' as will public transport, where again spacing cannot be maintained without massive capacity reduction.

[Raja Clavata]

41 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

There is something that has long been recognised called "Open-air Factor" https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(19)30153-7/fulltext which has been used (perhaps by fortunate accident), but is undoubtedly a fact.  However - when the virus is in 'droplets' such as when exhaled as part of a cough, the actual viral bits are protected within the drop.  I am not sure that the detailed way it works is well understood (UV, free radicals, air movement) - but it seems to cease to work indoors, even in well ventilated buildings and near open windows.

Many modern offices have the 'cassette in the ceiling tiles' type of heating and air conditioning - being a cheap way to have air conditioning in summer and a heat pump based (green ticks in boxes) heating in winter.  They circulate and temperature adjust recycled air and I suspect are very poor for containing all forms of 'bug transmission'.  Before I retired, in our offices we went from individual (or shared between 2) offices with conventional water radiators for heating with opening windows and fans for cooling - to open plan with these cassette based 'air conditioning' systems and sealed windows.  It also allowed a higher number of people per unit of floorspace ........... and led to a very noticeable increase in cold/cough/flu/sinus complaints and illnesses - and also gave trouble with (excessively low) humidity causing electrostatic problems.

I think these systems and the high number of people per unit area of modern open plan offices will be a major problem with safe distances as we 'unlock' as will public transport, where again spacing cannot be maintained without massive capacity reduction.

Agreed, it's going to be a concern anywhere that can in any way be described as a confined space.

Interesting thing is though that my sister in law had it, my brother slept in a different room to her and for the period she was ill she did not leave the bedroom (ensuite) although my brother took food and drink into her throughout. Neither he nor the two kids developed symptoms. She is well again now.

I also know a serving Police Officer who caught it, again she's recovered and her spouse slept in the same bed throughout without developing symptoms.

The husband of a young family who live in the same cul-de-sac as my mum tested positive, almost certainly passed via his wife who works in a hospice and had no symptoms, same as their two kids. Husband is fit as a fiddle but was poorly with it, now OK.

The explanation for all this could be people infected and asymptomatic, but I dunno.  

Edited May 3, 2020 by Raja Clavata
and asymptomatic

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The explanation for all this could be people infected asymptomatically, but I dunno.

I have always been puzzled by the simple 'common cold'.  Common - yes, simple, no. 

There are apparently 'loads' of virus/nasties (many being 'rhinoviruses') which cause 'a cold', and some people get them easily - others don't.  Some people get them badly and often have resulting chest infections, others don't.  I have always been quite resistant to colds, typically getting a 'good one' that passes quickly quite early in the winter season, then occasionally a mild one later.  I don't get a temperature, or chest infection and get over it quickly, but have occasionally had sinus troubles/ear infections afterwards.  Others seems to be much more prone to temperatures and chest infections.  In the office block I worked in, some people used to get every cold going (genuinely) and some were seldom affected.  People who work outside/in big open areas seem to get less colds compared to those who work in offices, but that is just an impression.

Despite years of research, there is still no either cure of prevention for a cold, the reason being the wide variety of causes.

[Mice!]

56 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

think these systems and the high number of people per unit area of modern open plan offices will be a major problem with safe distances as we 'unlock' as will public transport, where again spacing cannot be maintained without massive capacity reduction.

I'm glad I don't work in an office, I've heard that many who are able to work from home where I am will continue to for quite some time.

Talking about public transport,  there was something about the trains being empty last week which is understandable but they were expecting a lot to move away from public transport and back to cars.

[JohnfromUK]

11 minutes ago, Mice! said:

but they were expecting a lot to move away from public transport and back to cars.

Unfortunately, many modern offices don't have any provision for parking.

[Raja Clavata]

Push bike industry boomed after 2012 Olympics, with covid plus the link to obesity I reckon it could boom again, sadly a bit late for some of the retailers though. Also a good strategy to reach "herd immunity" from the abuse that cyclists are often subjected too 🙂

[ClemFandango]

3 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Yes you are right, one of the reasons which I had not realised until this happened is that Italy uses a lot of Chinese workers as cheap labour. They use them in the clothing factories in Northern Italy and a lot in the hotels.

The first cases in Italy were all Chinese Nationals. The emergence coincided with the ski season, and skiers took it back to their own countries having probably caught it from workers in their hotels.

Have a look at a map of all the passenger flights across the world... Truly amazing. 

Then remember that this is a small percentage of all the travel that goes on to move things like freight and doesn't include human travel by train, boat etc and then think how easy would it be to contain a virus that you don't even know exists. 

An then think what if I did know it existed. How long would it take to shut that all off completely (if you could).

How many passengers can get on a boeing 747? it only takes one to have a virus and not even exhibit symptoms or know that they have it for the virus to circulate in the air. Potentially infect everyone on that plane... And then, unless the plane is completely sterilised everyone on the next flight. 

Then think of the onward journeys of all those now infected people. Where are they taking the virus to pass on to their families and friends?

and that is just one flight of one plane in one day and this could all be before anyone even knows the virus exists. 

 

[Norfolk wildfowler]

8 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

No they ******* weren't!! 

Do you think that the first person that gets a brand new, unknown virus gets picked up every time? Of course not!! 

The odds are that it had already left China before anybody knew it existed. It doesn't matter how many people move about then, once it's out it's out.

The difference of Covid-19 and SARS etc is the infection rate. One person with C-19 potentially infects  more people than one person with flu or sars or whatever. 

You can't compare them.

 

O yes they were. I could see it coming and took preventive measures well  before our government had given it a second thought. I had PPE and in lockdown 2 weeks before the government had even thought about lockdowns. Asleep at the wheel is exactly what they are guilty of. Its their job to spot and act on these things , but they ignored it. If I saw it so should have Boris and co, but then he never was much good at things that affect people. He never even bothered to visit the poor ******* flooded out in the west country. Boris excuse- he did not want to get in the way. An curtsy visit to see what was going on is not getting in the way on the contrary its raseing the profile of the problem. And yes any potential pandemic is very comparable. As for shutting down the aircraft flights, the UK still has not done it and an average of 15,000 a day are still flooding into the country. Ops Boris is still asleep. I am very sorry he caught the virus , but whos fault was that. There were many occasions when he did photo\publicity meetings with Drs and nurses, he did not practice social distancing and shook more hands than you could count. If he had not caught the virus it would have been amazing. Asleep again.