Anyone else supporting the Govt.?

[JohnfromUK]

9 hours ago, AVB said:

Slightly flawed though as it doesn’t show the number of tests executed.

Accept that - but none of these measurements are really comparable - because of the number of tests, who gets the tests, the way in which deaths are assigned (or otherwise) to Covid, but I was sick of the constant negativity in the press and broadcasts about the UK's record and wanted to show that the continual 'GB is amongst the worst' is simply one view of many.

Edited May 17, 2020 by JohnfromUK

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Accept that - but none of these measurements are really comparable - because of the number of tests, who gets the tests, the way in which deaths are assigned (or otherwise) to Covid, but I was sick of the constant negativity in the press and broadcasts about the UK's record and wanted to show that the continual 'GB is amongst the worst' is simply one view of many.

       No matter what any governments policies are to this virus, it knows no bounds. It can be spread by an individual sequence of events in an area , and that single incident can show up significantly in the overall cases and thus death toll.

  Countries have different population densities and, other factors like the public transport use etc all impact figures.

  My point is its way more than a governments policies that can cause this virus to spread. The big death toll in London was this, down to what exactly.?

Population density, or was it just that corona virus carrier who snezzed near t5hose underground workers spread it through the underground. ?

  Any one off event in a country could potentially cause  even the tightest lockdown measures to fail   when it comes to stopping the cases rising. This is why we all need to be vigilant in what we are doing and prevent it spreading. .

 

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

This is why we all need to be vigilant in what we are doing and prevent it spreading. .

Can't disagree with that (or the rest of the post).  My only change is that I can now do two or more walks - all direct from home in my case (no car travel) rather than being limited to one.

[Vince Green]

I've just been to Morrisons, my route takes me past some parkland visible from the road called Headstone Manor. Sat on the grass on plain view about half a dozen mums and their kids all having a picnic while the kids played.

A lot of people really don't get it. 

[oowee]

37 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I've just been to Morrisons, my route takes me past some parkland visible from the road called Headstone Manor. Sat on the grass on plain view about half a dozen mums and their kids all having a picnic while the kids played.

A lot of people really don't get it. 

I live in an area of AONB by a large lake. Lots of people naturaly want to go out and take some fresh air but Bristol Water have closed the car park and hundreds of cars are parked on the verges. I have just been to collect petrol for the mowers and it's a nightmare. That said most of the people were keeping their distance except at the bird feeding spots and again its mums with kids. I guess soon they will be in school anyway so ..........

[AVB]

Lots of villages out my way swamped with motorcyclists. They didn’t seem to be following social distancing whilst standing around chatting.  

[oowee]

Just watching the daily update. They are simply avoiding the tough questions. Question about schools adopting different standards ignored. Question about different approaches accross regions was answered with 'We have a single UK approach to lifting lock down?????? Maybe they have forgotten Scotland, Wales and NI.  

Asked why are arrivals from France being treated differently? Ans 'We are having talks with Macron'????

They are not helping anyone understand what is happening.

Edited May 17, 2020 by oowee

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

Question about schools adopting different standards ignored.

I imagine the detailed implementation will be up to individual local education authorities - who will better know the facilities and challenges in their area

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

Question about different approaches accross regions was answered with 'We have a single UK approach to lifting lock down?????? Maybe they have forgotten Scotland, Wales and NI.

Westminster does have a single UK approach; it is the Welsh and Scottish assemblies that have chosen to go differently for their own regional reasons

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Asked why are arrivals from France being treated differently? Ans 'We are having talks with Macron'?

I cannot answer this other than what he said.  Possibly Macron is being difficult - saying no traffic through channel ports unless ......?   The other BIG problem here is that some elements in the EU have apparently said that whatever terms are granted to France must apply to the whole EU as they are 'one region'.  They didn't implement their lockdowns as one region, but then the EU always followed rules where following suited them, and ignored them where ignoring suited them.

[ditchman]

watching prime ministers question time.............................starmer is asking some good questions ........................

but all of this now is turning into a politicle blame game...............labour are just piling it on knowing they dont have to account for anything...............why cant they just be constructive not critical..................prime ministers question time is turning into a court apperance every wednesday at 12 for boris

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, ditchman said:

why cant they just be constructive not critical

Oppositions are seldom 'constructive', because their supporters wish to see them acting against the government.  Having said that, Corbyn (who was a person in whom 'going against the party line' even applied in his dealings with his own party, both before and when he was party leader.  That attitude he had and which characterised his time - and which is unhelpful and wasteful of valuable time has not yet gone away.

Think for a minute how 'costly' this is.  On a busy (pre Covid) PM question time, there might be 500 members in the chamber.  Half an hour of trivial political point scoring is 250 man hours wasted - at say £100 an hour = £25,000.

[Lord v]

I think Starmer will become a largely forgettable opposition leader. Whilst he does ask some good questions he just cannot leave the barrister style behind and Boris is far more comfortable with that approach than he ever was with Corbyns barracking. 

In a way its a pity that ideologically Corbyn was so far out and surrounded himself with idiots. If he wasn't so intransient he could have made a pretty effective opposition.

I did find myself agreeing with Boris that the feigned ignorance is very tiresome. 

[ditchman]

4 minutes ago, Lord v said:

I think Starmer will become a largely forgettable opposition leader. Whilst he does ask some good questions he just cannot leave the barrister style behind and Boris is far more comfortable with that approach than he ever was with Corbyns barracking. 

In a way its a pity that ideologically Corbyn was so far out and surrounded himself with idiots. If he wasn't so intransient he could have made a pretty effective opposition.

I did find myself agreeing with Boris that the feigned ignorance is very tiresome. 

even the bbc picked up on that.................

[Lord v]

2 minutes ago, ditchman said:

even the bbc picked up on that.................

They are one of the worst culprits! 

I sometimes marvel at the restraint shown in the daily briefing in dealing with the inane questions fired out. 

[ditchman]

5 minutes ago, Lord v said:

They are one of the worst culprits! 

I sometimes marvel at the restraint shown in the daily briefing in dealing with the inane questions fired out. 

they are cringe worthy.............they are not interested in the wellbeing of the country..........they are looking at their minit in the sunshine by trying to ask questions the minister cant answer.

but it dosnt work with the science bods....cause they know their stuff

[lancer425]

12 minutes ago, Lord v said:

They are one of the worst culprits! 

I sometimes marvel at the restraint shown in the daily briefing in dealing with the inane questions fired out. 

The BBC should be impartial but sadly are not.

[Lord v]

The NHS surcharge argument is ridiculous. 

The surcharge has been in place for non EU immigration for the last 5 years or so. Shockingly (not) a lot of the NHS workers that are immigrants are not from EU countries so have been subject to this for years. I don't recall a hue and cry then about it... 

[oowee]

Starmer did well and was right to labour the point (🙂 ) as the questions were avoided as BJ knows they got much of it wrong, particularly releasing symptomatic patients to care homes. That said, it's a thankless job as is the Brexit negotiation. 

[Vince Green]

On 17/05/2020 at 17:02, oowee said:

Just watching the daily update. They are simply avoiding the tough questions. Question about schools adopting different standards ignored. Question about different approaches accross regions was answered with 'We have a single UK approach to lifting lock down?????? Maybe they have forgotten Scotland, Wales and NI.  

Asked why are arrivals from France being treated differently? Ans 'We are having talks with Macron'????

They are not helping anyone understand what is happening.

The reason arrivals from France and Ireland are being treated differently is because we have well over a thousand lorries arriving every day by ferry from these two countries.

They are bringing essencial supplies so we can't quarantine the drivers or they simply won't come. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Vince Green

[Retsdon]

On 17/05/2020 at 11:24, lancer425 said:

 

      

  Any one off event in a country could potentially cause  even the tightest lockdown measures to fail .

 

That's why the whole point of a lockdown is to buy time to get a proper track trace and isolate system in place so that one- off events don't put everyone back to square one when the lockdown is lifted.

But there's no sign of that happening. Maybe the government doesn't think anything needs upgrading. After all, this was Johnson on March 3rd. 'Our plan means we’re committed to doing everything possible based on the advice of our world leading scientific experts to prepare for all eventualities. Let’s not forget – we already have a fantastic NHS, fantastic testing systems and fantastic surveillance of the spread of disease.'  Yet the tracking system was so fantastic it was abandoned a week later. And the NHS was so fantastic that it had to turf 15,000 patients out of their hospital beds to make space - and what's worse many of those as a matter of government policy  were sent back to care homes regardless of whether they were showing symptoms of carrying the virus. And once there, they were as a matter of governnment  policy denied any kind of medical palliative care at all. Not to mention that they spread the virus  among the general care home population like mixy-infected rabbits introduced to a warren. And the 'world leading scientific experts' are now being lined up as patsies to take the blame for the shambles.

Because it is a shambles and it's going to get worse. The problem all along has been that it's impossible to bull#### a virus. It doesn't listen to the soundbites.  Consequently once the lockdown is lifted it'll be back to square one again within a month. This dodgy app and minimum wage  phone bank version of Track and Trace is so obviously just a smoke and mirrors tick box exercise - much like the 100,000 tests claim and the counting of a pair of gloves as 2 bits of PPE  that what's coming down the rails is as plain as the Flying Scotsman.  But never mind, good old Boris will bluster us through to the sunny uplands. 

And that's why, internationally, the country is fast becoming a laughing stock. https://www.economist.com/britain/2020/05/16/how-coronavirus-britain-looks-from-abroad

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

That's why the whole point of a lockdown is to buy time to get a proper track trace and isolate system in place so that one- off events don't put everyone back to square one when the lockdown is lifted.

But there's no sign of that happening.

You do talk a load of rubbish sometimes!  No sign of it happening?  There is EVERY sign it is being set up.  Only today they have been talking about it in Parliament;  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52741331

 

[lancer425]

26 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

That's why the whole point of a lockdown is to buy time to get a proper track trace and isolate system in place so that one- off events don't put everyone back to square one when the lockdown is lifted.

But there's no sign of that happening. Maybe the government doesn't think anything needs upgrading. After all, this was Johnson on March 3rd. 'Our plan means we’re committed to doing everything possible based on the advice of our world leading scientific experts to prepare for all eventualities. Let’s not forget – we already have a fantastic NHS, fantastic testing systems and fantastic surveillance of the spread of disease.'  Yet the tracking system was so fantastic it was abandoned a week later. And the NHS was so fantastic that it had to turf 15,000 patients out of their hospital beds to make space - and what's worse many of those as a matter of government policy  were sent back to care homes regardless of whether they were showing symptoms of carrying the virus. And once there, they were as a matter of governnment  policy denied any kind of medical palliative care at all. Not to mention that they spread the virus  among the general care home population like mixy-infected rabbits introduced to a warren. And the 'world leading scientific experts' are now being lined up as patsies to take the blame for the shambles.

Because it is a shambles and it's going to get worse. The problem all along has been that it's impossible to bull#### a virus. It doesn't listen to the soundbites.  Consequently once the lockdown is lifted it'll be back to square one again within a month. This dodgy app and minimum wage  phone bank version of Track and Trace is so obviously just a smoke and mirrors tick box exercise - much like the 100,000 tests claim and the counting of a pair of gloves as 2 bits of PPE  that what's coming down the rails is as plain as the Flying Scotsman.  But never mind, good old Boris will bluster us through to the sunny uplands. 

And that's why, internationally, the country is fast becoming a laughing stock. https://www.economist.com/britain/2020/05/16/how-coronavirus-britain-looks-from-abroad

[Retsdon]

44 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I wonder that you find it funny.

Originally in the Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/05/12/governments-handling-covid-19-british-disaster/   Outside the Telegraph paywall here . https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/the-handling-of-covid-19-has-led-to-a-very-british-disaster-20200514-p54ssd.html  if you want to read the full article.

'A COVID cardiologist at a top London hospital - friendly to Boris - has been so incensed by the daily charade of bogus omniscience that he vented his spleen in an email to me on Sunday night. It is a poignant indictment, so I pass along a few snippets.

'Every mistake that could have been made, was made.' He likened the care home policy to the Siege of Caffa in 1346, that grim chapter of the Black Death when a Mongol army catapulted plague-ridden bodies over the walls.

"Our policy was to let the virus rip and then 'cocoon the elderly'," he wrote. "You don't know whether to laugh or cry when you contrast that with what we actually did. We discharged known, suspected, and unknown cases into care homes which were unprepared, with no formal warning that the patients were infected, no testing available, and no PPE to prevent transmission.

"We actively seeded this into the very population that was most vulnerable. We let people die without palliation. The official policy was not to visit care homes - and they didn't (and still don't). So, after infecting them with a disease that causes an unpleasant ending, we denied our elders access to a doctor and denied admission to hospital. Simple things like fluids, withheld. Effective palliation like syringe drivers, withheld."

Personally  I find it hard to laugh.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

I wonder that you find it funny.

Originally in the Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/05/12/governments-handling-covid-19-british-disaster/   Outside the Telegraph paywall here . https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/the-handling-of-covid-19-has-led-to-a-very-british-disaster-20200514-p54ssd.html  if you want to read the full article.

'A COVID cardiologist at a top London hospital - friendly to Boris - has been so incensed by the daily charade of bogus omniscience that he vented his spleen in an email to me on Sunday night. It is a poignant indictment, so I pass along a few snippets.

'Every mistake that could have been made, was made.' He likened the care home policy to the Siege of Caffa in 1346, that grim chapter of the Black Death when a Mongol army catapulted plague-ridden bodies over the walls.

"Our policy was to let the virus rip and then 'cocoon the elderly'," he wrote. "You don't know whether to laugh or cry when you contrast that with what we actually did. We discharged known, suspected, and unknown cases into care homes which were unprepared, with no formal warning that the patients were infected, no testing available, and no PPE to prevent transmission.

"We actively seeded this into the very population that was most vulnerable. We let people die without palliation. The official policy was not to visit care homes - and they didn't (and still don't). So, after infecting them with a disease that causes an unpleasant ending, we denied our elders access to a doctor and denied admission to hospital. Simple things like fluids, withheld. Effective palliation like syringe drivers, withheld."

Personally  I find it hard to laugh.

Now that i can very much believe.

[Smokersmith]

4 hours ago, Retsdon said:

That's why the whole point of a lockdown is to buy time to get a proper track trace and isolate system in place so that one- off events don't put everyone back to square one when the lockdown is lifted.

 

Really?

 I thought we were protecting the NHS and saving lives.

[Gordon R]

Is there one person who actually believes that "track, trace and isolate" is an answer? I think it is totally flawed and has more holes than a colander.