Why does the guardian hate this country so much ?

[grrclark]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its a good job the authors much despised Empire/Commonwealth WAS there to pull upon..Or he would probably been writing a very different article, in German,with a swastika at the top of the page.
At least we wouldnt have to cope with shame of our colonial past then , as it would most likely have been erased from history, a bit like how some are trying to do now.

Having read it again to make sure i'm not missing anything, I cannot see where the author had a dig at the Empire/Commonwealth at all.

He is having a dig at the current generation in using false narrative of the past, in which i don't agree, but I really don't see anything in that article as having a go at the war generation at all.

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Having read it again to make sure i'm not missing anything, I cannot see where the author had a dig at the Empire/Commonwealth at all.

He is having a dig at the current generation in using false narrative of the past, in which i don't agree, but I really don't see anything in that article as having a go at the war generation at all.

from Captain Tom Moore’s chart-topping You’ll Never Walk Alone to Katherine Jenkins’ charity take on Vera Lynn’s We’ll Meet Again – a cover version as grey and sickly as 1940s rationed margarine – 2020 has been a year in which we’ve been reminded, more than ever, that British culture is unable to escape the long shadow of the second world war.

'We'll Meet Again: how toxic nostalgia twisted Vera Lynn's pop masterpiece'

Toxic nostalgia , thats a new one !

Yet as the generation who fought the war have died, so a romantic view of the conflict has become weaponised in the construction of the myth of a plucky Britain, fighting alone against Nazi foes. Britain in 1940 wasn’t alone at all, with the resources of an empire behind it, but that hardly serves the war-evoking narrative that formed the core of so much discourse around Brexit and today’s culture war.

I dont know about you , but if Id fought/ lived through WW2 , Id see those statements as a bit of a kick in the teeth ?

[Gordon R]

Quote

construction of the myth of a plucky Britain, fighting alone against Nazi foes. 

We fought alongside many other nations and would not have won without them. I don't recall hearing this particular myth and suspect few others have either.

Where do they dig up these idiots?

[JohnfromUK]

It seems a fairly standard Guardian article to me; not particularly insightful, rather 'negative' (such as comparing things to margarine).

When someone who has been much respected and liked by all from HM the Queen to the majority of Joe Public, they could and should have done something more positive and complimentary ........... but that isn't the Guardian's style.

Always looking for and trumpeting 'the worst' is what they have always done.  A negative paper, written for buy those who are lefty and negative - the two of which tend to go hand in hand.  Some of their writers such as Owen Jones, George Moonblot etc. and nasty pieces of work - and very anti our sports.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

We should absoloutely be proud of what the men and women achieved at that time. We now need to be proud in our own time rather than falling back on the crutch of the past wether it be vera lyn, or the world cup win. What are we doing here and now other than lurching from crisis to crisis? Maybe thats why we keep falling back on the past when the goal was clear then, it was about survival. Now it's more an aimless drift.

I don't believe it's entirety separate though, our culture meant that we as a country stood up for what was right against the odds, I don't believe that is something we should forget and I believe it is something we should be proud of as a nation and continue. We, or at least many of us still hold these values, we hold doors open for women, would step in if we saw a woman being hit, believe in manners and respect, we cue up in shops in a far more orderly manner than many other countries, which is a hark back to war time, it is part of our culture as a nation and although we're not perfect, I don't believe we should loose that.

[grrclark]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

from Captain Tom Moore’s chart-topping You’ll Never Walk Alone to Katherine Jenkins’ charity take on Vera Lynn’s We’ll Meet Again – a cover version as grey and sickly as 1940s rationed margarine – 2020 has been a year in which we’ve been reminded, more than ever, that British culture is unable to escape the long shadow of the second world war.

'We'll Meet Again: how toxic nostalgia twisted Vera Lynn's pop masterpiece'

Toxic nostalgia , thats a new one !

Yet as the generation who fought the war have died, so a romantic view of the conflict has become weaponised in the construction of the myth of a plucky Britain, fighting alone against Nazi foes. Britain in 1940 wasn’t alone at all, with the resources of an empire behind it, but that hardly serves the war-evoking narrative that formed the core of so much discourse around Brexit and today’s culture war.

I dont know about you , but if Id fought/ lived through WW2 , Id see those statements as a bit of a kick in the teeth ?

Those criticisms are squarely aimed at the current generation though.  I disagree with what he says, but he isn't having a go at the war generation, he's having a go at how this generation may choose to look back ai it.

[Walker570]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 Im not , its people who , like I said seem embarrassed of it , the sort of people who seem to think we cant survive without the EU to 'guide' us .

 

'The song’s magic lay in its poignancy – the very quality that has led to Britain’s parochial obsession with the second world war'

'In a sense, and this is not to be disrespectful to her memory, she was in the right place at the right time. She was by no means a great singer.'

Nice.

I knew someone would say that 😏

 

Do we ..really ?
Reflecting on the times and values of the past, isnt necessarily 'living' in it , its about learning from it.
I dont see anything to be embarrassed about in doing that, but the guardian, in its efforts to be woke and progressive, seems to want to cultivate shame on the generations that have come after, as if we somehow have to pay for whatever thought crimes our ancestors did as they fought for survival , and the right to spawn the likes of the journo who used the death of a national icon to promote this strange ideology.

I now expect that all the history Professors in our Unis will now be out of a job.   Saw the list of Professors in Oxford listed in the Telegraph and now know hy we are on the skids. Not one was teaching anythng useful or likely to help build this country up.

She was one great Lady and this whole debate denigrates her memory.

[mudpatten]

So much bile from the Left. So much moral confusion.

I sometimes wonder how things might have been had history been slightly different.

The Nazis despised the Jews and set about exterminating them. Britain played a major part in destroying the Nazis perverted moral philosophy.

If Hitler and the Nazis were on the rise today would we witness the modern Left joining in with theThird Reichs Jew baiting.

According to the Left, Churchill was a racist, yet he helped to defeat one of the planets most evil empires of all time. The Left has now decided that only black people can be enslaved and opressed, surely the most racist concept ever.

So much bile. So much moral confusion.

[Retsdon]

It's ironic that the first chance they had to vote, the generation that are so lionized by the right wing these days got shot of Churchill and voted in a socialist government by a landslide. If they were still alive today, most of the posters on these boards would be totally at odds with the people they're placing on a pedestal. 

The past is gone, and if you try and live in it you're making yourself homeless.

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

It's ironic that the first chance they had to vote, the generation that are so lionized by the right wing these days got shot of Churchill and voted in a socialist government by a landslide. If they were still alive today, most of the posters on these boards would be totally at odds with the people they're placing on a pedestal. 

The past is gone, and if you try and live in it you're making yourself homeless.

There's a difference, there is an attempt to bully those living in the present to drop it's values and being unfairly blamed by a hard left wing minority into taking blame it doesn't deserve, very few are trying to live in the past, just admire and remember those who made sacrifices, which has made us the country we are today.

[Retsdon]

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

there is an attempt to bully those living in the present to drop it's values and being unfairly blamed by a hard left wing minority into taking blame it doesn't deserve,

I've no time for that nonsense either. It's just the other side of the same coin. It doesn't make a difference whether it's slavery or the D Day landings, if you're allowing events that happened before you were even born and of which you ( an I'm using 'you' in  a general term here ) have no experience to frame your political and social reference points, then you're basically taking a line through Miss Haversham in Great Expectations, who refused to move on from her wedding day.

The past is gone and it's not coming back. Yes, it can be learned from, and yes, we can look at people's actions or philosophy and admire what we see, but this obsession ( and it is an obsession) with events that happened 80 years ago is downright unhealthy. 

Nobody can go back - ever.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Retsdon

[islandgun]

Its about respect

[Raja Clavata]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Its a good job the authors much despised Empire/Commonwealth WAS there to pull upon..Or he would probably been writing a very different article, in German,with a swastika at the top of the page.
At least we wouldnt have to cope with shame of our colonial past then , as it would most likely have been erased from history, a bit like how some are trying to do now.

Indeed it is. You seem to want to be creating variance when there’s really no need. I already stated my respect for the generation who fought in the war.

The article is clearly about the post war era.

[Walker570]

20 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Its about respect

Exactly, but not terribly common these days.

 

[Raja Clavata]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think that's talking down what the brave men and women of the UK ,who stood up to Hitler did at that time. There were many calling for us not to get involved, as they rightly pointed out, we were unlikely to be able to win it at that point,but the likes of Churchill and other great people, stood for what was right, against the odds and collectively, good defeated evil, like me, there will be many on here who lost family in that war, standing for freedom for the world.

Why shouldn't we be be proud of what this country stood for then and the brave who ensured all our freedoms, including the ungreatful hordes currently smashing our country up?
 

That isn’t the point. This is really distasteful actually. In missing the point you seem to want to imply something that misses the mark by a country mile. I’m starting to feel sorry for you actually, despite deeply resenting what you appear to be implying here.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

I've no time for that nonsense either. It's just the other side of the same coin. It doesn't make a difference whether it's slavery or the D Day landings, if you're allowing events that happened before you were even born and of which you ( an I'm using 'you' in  a general term here ) have no experience to frame your political and social reference points, then you're basically taking a line through Miss Haversham in Great Expectations, who refused to move on from her wedding day.

The past is gone and it's not coming back. Yes, it can be learned from, and yes, we can look at people's actions or philosophy and admire what we see, but this obsession ( and it is an obsession) with events that happened 80 years ago is downright unhealthy. 

Nobody can go back - ever.

I'm not talking about going back, but our culture is built on our past and the morel's handed down from parent to child, it history that happened in people's life times, not something that happened thousands of years ago.

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That isn’t the point. This is really distasteful actually. In missing the point you seem to want to imply something that misses the mark by a country mile. I’m starting to feel sorry for you actually, despite deeply resenting what you appear to be implying here.

What have I said that is distasteful?

[Raja Clavata]

5 hours ago, grrclark said:

Having read it again to make sure i'm not missing anything, I cannot see where the author had a dig at the Empire/Commonwealth at all.

He is having a dig at the current generation in using false narrative of the past, in which i don't agree, but I really don't see anything in that article as having a go at the war generation at all.

Exactly.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

I've no time for that nonsense either. It's just the other side of the same coin. It doesn't make a difference whether it's slavery or the D Day landings, 

On this point you also don't grasp the majority of this country's feeling, almost everyone in the UK will agree slavery was an vile trade that they disagree with and that was nothing to do with them or anyone they ever met.

Those that fought and died on the battlefield for our freedoms were brothers, uncles, fathers and grandparents, who stood for the values we still believe in today.

[Raja Clavata]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm not talking about going back, but our culture is built on our past and the morel's handed down from parent to child, it history that happened in people's life times, not something that happened thousands of years ago.

What have I said that is distasteful?

Read back, you quoted me without actually quoting me and replied saying this is talking down blah blah blah.

Getting tiresome.

[12gauge82]

21 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Read back, you quoted me without actually quoting me and replied saying this is talking down blah blah blah.

Getting tiresome.

Genuinely very sorry if I've offended you, I'm not sure what happened with my quote, I write on my phone and my fingers are like four sausages stuffed into a pasty. it certainly is not my intent to upset you. Although we often have different views, your posts are always thought invoking and we'll written.

Edited June 19, 2020 by 12gauge82

[Raja Clavata]

Fair enough, you didn’t upset me. Good evening.

[12gauge82]

19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Fair enough, you didn’t upset me. Good evening.

Cheers for understanding 👍

[Raja Clavata]

Just to come back on this and provide some personal perspective.

My Father was born about a month prematurely (do the math if you doubt me) on the 23^rd January 1946 after my GrandMother fell pregnant almost immediately upon my GrandFather’s return to the UK at the end of WW2.

As I’m sure was the case with many of his generation, her grew up with a desire to learn about both the Great Wars that had spanned the first half of the 20^th Century, whilst not quite his specialist chosen subject he had a wealth of knowledge about WW2 having learnt not just from the popular literature in Britain at the time but also from other sources throughout Europe and beyond.

My brother and I were born in the early 70’s and we were brought up with the standard popular films about WW2, we were both fascinated by the war and in blissful ignorance of it’s true horrors. I have looked back on it with regret and guilt in older life at the way we used to pester our GrandFather to tell us about his war-time stories, he was very reluctant to do so and we didn’t really get much out of him on it. We didn’t understand it at the time of course but later came to realise that it was a horror in his past that he really did not want to be regularly reminded of and certainly not forced to recite. We were young, the films glorified the war and we were proud of our “Grandad Jack” and the few, very watered down, snippets of events he did share with us. Reality came crashing down on us with the scenes of the Sir Gallahad during the Falklands War.

Around the same time, the subscription to a WW2 magazine concluded and my Father had the magazines bound, by a friend of the family working in print, into a number of hardback books that effectively created an encyclopedia collection. Several years later I read those books and further came to realise that we were only part of the reason the Germans were defeated. The article in the link below captures the essence of my overall understanding, and to partially quote “England provided the time – meaning Churchill’s resolve and defiance in 1940-41- America provided the money, and Russia provided the blood.”

https://www.historynet.com/really-won-war.htm

This is not to take anything away from the hardship, suffering and dogged determination that the people of our nation suffered at the time.

But, I do believe that as a nation “we” have built a national myth on winning the Second World War by which I mean the extent to which we influenced the Allied success. I’m also quite sure we are not alone in doing this, far from it. But where we do appear rather unique is seemingly in not having properly moved on from it…

Even today we still hear phrases like “the Dunkirk spirit”, football “fans” sing about the colour of their Army and some treat others like they are at war with them. But it was only quite recently that these bellicose tendencies creeped into our “Politics”.

·         Farage cited the queue of immigrants lined up waiting to “invade us” in the run up to the 2016 referendum.

·         Leave.EU rightly suffered a huge backlash to a tweet citing “We didn’t win two world wars to be pushed around by Krauts”.

·         We were even recently told that we were fighting a war against an invisible enemy in COVID and it certainly did the trick of bringing us Plebs into line…

These can be seen as either good or bad, based on perspective.

So, why are we so hung-up on the war, well I reckon quite possibly (’66 aside – OK, I’m joking) it’s the last time that Britain was truly great on a world stage.

What bothers me though is not so much the inflated sense of our contribution to winning WW2 that is enshrined in UK history but the lack of recognition of other historical events such as:

·         The Suez crisis – which signalled the end of the Imperial past for both us and France. France decided it would take a leading role in a strong and “unified” Europe, we decided to cosy up to the US.

·         India partition – 1 million people were slaughtered in the run up to Indian Sub-continent independence, where is this taught in our curriculum?

·         Other aspects of our Imperial past, including our role in the slave trade – there are a significant percentage of adults of my age who believe we had not part in slavery.

The truth is of course out there but you do have to go looking for it a bit, at least in most cases. One of the lessons I learnt in life is you often learn more from failure than you do success.

Ironically Germany stands condemned today not for its historic Nazism but for its contemporary liberalism.

We may have “won the war” but the enormity of the Holocaust forced Germany to address the darkest aspects of its past whilst it appears to have given us an excuse to avoid thinking too deeply about the history of slavery or of empire and so minimise their horrors in comparison to the Holocaust.

I would strongly contest that these views and experiences do not make me any less of a Patriot than anyone who is either ignorant of our history or who conveniently chooses to overlook it. Similarly I am no less respectful of the suffering endured by those living through the Great Wars and the contribution they made to our history. Likewise I can equally respect other people and hold doors open for ladies etc.

[Retsdon]

55 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But where we do appear rather unique is seemingly in not having properly moved on from it…

My point exactly.  And it's very destructive, because it's impossible to make decent progress if you're always looking backwards over your shoulder the whole time. Also, if you wander along daydreaming about the past and imagining you're somewhere other than where you really are, and not paying attention to where you're going, if you're not careful you'll very likely end up falling down a manhole or walking in front of a bus or whatever, and getting very badly hurt.

And unfortunately, it rather looks as if that's exactly what's happened. Brexit, when it kicks in next year, is going to be one hell of a rude awakening. 

[AVB]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Just to come back on this and provide some personal perspective.

My Father was born about a month prematurely (do the math if you doubt me) on the 23^rd January 1946 after my GrandMother fell pregnant almost immediately upon my GrandFather’s return to the UK at the end of WW2.

As I’m sure was the case with many of his generation, her grew up with a desire to learn about both the Great Wars that had spanned the first half of the 20^th Century, whilst not quite his specialist chosen subject he had a wealth of knowledge about WW2 having learnt not just from the popular literature in Britain at the time but also from other sources throughout Europe and beyond.

My brother and I were born in the early 70’s and we were brought up with the standard popular films about WW2, we were both fascinated by the war and in blissful ignorance of it’s true horrors. I have looked back on it with regret and guilt in older life at the way we used to pester our GrandFather to tell us about his war-time stories, he was very reluctant to do so and we didn’t really get much out of him on it. We didn’t understand it at the time of course but later came to realise that it was a horror in his past that he really did not want to be regularly reminded of and certainly not forced to recite. We were young, the films glorified the war and we were proud of our “Grandad Jack” and the few, very watered down, snippets of events he did share with us. Reality came crashing down on us with the scenes of the Sir Gallahad during the Falklands War.

Around the same time, the subscription to a WW2 magazine concluded and my Father had the magazines bound, by a friend of the family working in print, into a number of hardback books that effectively created an encyclopedia collection. Several years later I read those books and further came to realise that we were only part of the reason the Germans were defeated. The article in the link below captures the essence of my overall understanding, and to partially quote “England provided the time – meaning Churchill’s resolve and defiance in 1940-41- America provided the money, and Russia provided the blood.”

https://www.historynet.com/really-won-war.htm

This is not to take anything away from the hardship, suffering and dogged determination that the people of our nation suffered at the time.

But, I do believe that as a nation “we” have built a national myth on winning the Second World War by which I mean the extent to which we influenced the Allied success. I’m also quite sure we are not alone in doing this, far from it. But where we do appear rather unique is seemingly in not having properly moved on from it…

Even today we still hear phrases like “the Dunkirk spirit”, football “fans” sing about the colour of their Army and some treat others like they are at war with them. But it was only quite recently that these bellicose tendencies creeped into our “Politics”.

·         Farage cited the queue of immigrants lined up waiting to “invade us” in the run up to the 2016 referendum.

·         Leave.EU rightly suffered a huge backlash to a tweet citing “We didn’t win two world wars to be pushed around by Krauts”.

·         We were even recently told that we were fighting a war against an invisible enemy in COVID and it certainly did the trick of bringing us Plebs into line…

These can be seen as either good or bad, based on perspective.

So, why are we so hung-up on the war, well I reckon quite possibly (’66 aside – OK, I’m joking) it’s the last time that Britain was truly great on a world stage.

What bothers me though is not so much the inflated sense of our contribution to winning WW2 that is enshrined in UK history but the lack of recognition of other historical events such as:

·         The Suez crisis – which signalled the end of the Imperial past for both us and France. France decided it would take a leading role in a strong and “unified” Europe, we decided to cosy up to the US.

·         India partition – 1 million people were slaughtered in the run up to Indian Sub-continent independence, where is this taught in our curriculum?

·         Other aspects of our Imperial past, including our role in the slave trade – there are a significant percentage of adults of my age who believe we had not part in slavery.

The truth is of course out there but you do have to go looking for it a bit, at least in most cases. One of the lessons I learnt in life is you often learn more from failure than you do success.

Ironically Germany stands condemned today not for its historic Nazism but for its contemporary liberalism.

We may have “won the war” but the enormity of the Holocaust forced Germany to address the darkest aspects of its past whilst it appears to have given us an excuse to avoid thinking too deeply about the history of slavery or of empire and so minimise their horrors in comparison to the Holocaust.

I would strongly contest that these views and experiences do not make me any less of a Patriot than anyone who is either ignorant of our history or who conveniently chooses to overlook it. Similarly I am no less respectful of the suffering endured by those living through the Great Wars and the contribution they made to our history. Likewise I can equally respect other people and hold doors open for ladies etc.

I respect your well written post but not sure on what you are basing it on. I was born 10 years or so before you. Whilst I can’t remember exactly what we covered at school I can remember learning about the Romans, the Slave trade and WW1. I don’t recall learning much about WW2 although I hear about it from my father who fought in it and the many films made at the time. 
 

My younger children are both going through GCSE history at the moment. They are covering The period from 1920 (primarily the depression) through to the Cold War although the focus is mainly around the aftermath of WW2 and not the war itself. 
 

Whilst there are many people around who had parents who suffered through WW2 you will still get some people harking back to it. However, over time this will fade in the same way that WW1 is and previous wars already have. 
 

Considering that nobody alive today was either a slave or a slave owner I see no reason to think anymore deeply, or guiltily, about it than other historical events. Any more than the Danes do about the atrocities of Vikings or the Italians do about the  atrocities of the Romans.